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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:21 PM   #12361
Kemo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I've said it before, but the S-designation is important in distinguishing tolled roads to non-tolled roads. In theory, all A-class roads should be tolled - yes, for political purposes, some aren't, but the original plan was for them all to be tolled.
Then explain A6 and A8. Tolls on them and no tolls on the rest od S6 and S8? Nonsense. Actually A6 has the same standard as S6.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
droga główna ruchu przyspieszonego

It's a higher standard road than usual, varying from decent two-lane bypasses to motorway-like roads with narrow shoulders.
Yes, GP could be everything. All these are GP roads:
https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=zambr%...,232.64,,0,3.1
https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=jaros%...2,67.27,,0,0.2
https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=radoms...2,6.21,,0,-1.9
https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=j%C4%9...,126.34,,0,2.9
https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=zabrze...,262.29,,0,3.2

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It makes little sense to have S2 around Warsaw while the rest of the route is A2, both are high-standard, multilane, divided, controlled-access highways.
I think it was made to fool NIMBY Warsaw citizens into thinking that they won't have a "motorway" in their backyard
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #12362
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DTS is also GP?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:33 PM   #12363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
TIt makes little sense to have S2 around Warsaw while the rest of the route is A2, both are high-standard, multilane, divided, controlled-access highways.
It was strictly political decision for people "afraid" of motorway crossing Ursynow-part of Warsaw. Originally that part as well as whole S3 and s8 was planned and designed as motorways (A).
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #12364
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It was strictly political decision for people "afraid" of motorway crossing Ursynow-part of Warsaw. Originally that part as well as whole S3 and s8 was planned and designed as motorways (A).
Then having A-class and S-class roads is great if it's necessary to overcome the NIMBY opposition. The NIMBYies oppose the proposal for an A-class road, GDDKiA says, "OK. OK. You win. We won't build the motorway; we'll only build and expressway." The NIMBYies are happy and a good road is built.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:51 PM   #12365
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That is how it worked for people afride of living "next to" planned motorways in early 2000 just before motorway construction boom kicked off in Poland
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #12366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Then having A-class and S-class roads is great if it's necessary to overcome the NIMBY opposition. The NIMBYies oppose the proposal for an A-class road, GDDKiA says, "OK. OK. You win. We won't build the motorway; we'll only build and expressway." The NIMBYies are happy and a good road is built.
That seems to be the reasoning in some countries, but I find it hard to believe NIMBY's are that stupid. Perhaps it has more influence over the political decision-making process than NIMBY appeals per se.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:53 PM   #12367
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Sad reality of 90s and early 2000 in Poland. Lots of people got brainwashed by promising them to build "only" expressways instead of motorways.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:29 PM   #12368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That seems to be the reasoning in some countries, but I find it hard to believe NIMBY's are that stupid.
That's the reality in Central Europe (Poland, Germany, Austria,...).
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:46 PM   #12369
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I don't know, if they are stupid enough to be fooled by a four-lane expressway instead of a practically identical four-lane motorway, they are probably not to be afraid of in the first place.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 12:50 AM   #12370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That seems to be the reasoning in some countries, but I find it hard to believe NIMBY's are that stupid. Perhaps it has more influence over the political decision-making process than NIMBY appeals per se.
It's the same as in the UK - people will scream about blue lines near their house, but will be mollified by green lines, even if the standard is exactly the same.

I have to say, I quite like the fact that a blue line in Poland means that the road is of a very, very high quality. (well, usually, we ignore the A6...)
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Old August 8th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #12371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
It's the same as in the UK - people will scream about blue lines near their house, but will be mollified by green lines, even if the standard is exactly the same.

I have to say, I quite like the fact that a blue line in Poland means that the road is of a very, very high quality. (well, usually, we ignore the A6...)
Ireland had similar situation. Most of their motorways were built as, so called, "high quality dual carriageways" partially to lessen the opposition. But then, once their system of expressways was largely finished, they legally designated them motorways, swapped the signs for blue and voila!
Nice motorway network done
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Old August 8th, 2014, 02:47 AM   #12372
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Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Then explain A6 and A8. Tolls on them and no tolls on the rest od S6 and S8? Nonsense. Actually A6 has the same standard as S6.
Let's skip A6, because it was built in 30s and was never meant to be tolled. But when it comes to A8, plan was exactly as you wrote. It even has trumpet-shaped interchanges, ready for toll plazas installation. However, according to the current version of the act on toll motorways, this distinction no longer exists and both motorways and expressways may be tolled on the same terms.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 03:04 AM   #12373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janek0 View Post
Let's skip A6, because it was built in 30s and was never meant to be tolled. But when it comes to A8, plan was exactly as you wrote. It even has trumpet-shaped interchanges, ready for toll plazas installation. However, according to the current version of the act on toll motorways, this distinction no longer exists and both motorways and expressways may be tolled on the same terms.
As I recall, it was only shortly before opening of the A8 that the government declared that it would be toll-free, as there was a lot of confusion about whether tolls would be implemented or not.

If expressways may be tolled, then I have a strong and bad feeling that we're about to see the introduction of vignettes covering both motorways and expressways.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 10:40 AM   #12374
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Yesterday, a new contract for S8 was signed (with Astaldi):

S8: Zambrów-East - Mężenin 12 15.4km (August or September 2014 to December 2016) – project – map
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Old August 8th, 2014, 11:57 AM   #12375
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S8 Łask - Róża is finally open but it will make little difference to transit traffic. Only local traffic may benefit. However, things will improve further when the S8 between Wieluń (Walichnowy) and Sieradz opens in October/November

Last edited by Chris80678; August 8th, 2014 at 12:09 PM.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 06:20 PM   #12376
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Why is DK12 routed across S8?
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Old August 8th, 2014, 07:34 PM   #12377
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It's pretty much normal in Poland to do something like that - DK5 is routed along the A2 Poznan bypass, DK11 likewise. DK5 is also routed along the A4 for a while near Wroclaw, as is DK3.

I think the general idea is that it's better for DK routes to take the best routing rather than a more direct routing.

The thing I can't figure out with that sign - why is it only the S14 that has the expressway symbol and not the S8? Is it because the expressway is officially S14?
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Old August 8th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #12378
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Quote:
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~2,7 km of DTŚ (Drogowa Trasa Średnicowa) expressway opened in the city of Zabrze in Silesian Metropolis. DTŚ is the main east-west artery of the Silesian metropolis. It has 2x3 lanes.
I assume it did not open all the way to A1 then?

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Old August 8th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #12379
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Quote:
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Why is DK12 routed across S8?
DK12 used to go through the centre of Piotrków Trybunalski. But the city put weight restrictions on their part of the road, and since DK12 doesn't have an interchange with A1, trucks had to make a detour through provincial roads: https://maps.google.pl/maps?saddr=DK...a=1,2&t=m&z=11

So GDDKiA decided to route Dk12 together with DK8 to solve this problem.

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I assume it did not open all the way to A1 then?
Not yet, it opened to the trumpet interchange in the middle of the picture.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #12380
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When will DTS be opened up to the A1 interchange and further up to Gliwice?
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