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Old August 25th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #12521
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The future lasts a long time. Eventually, we'll probably see part or even all of the DK22 west of the S7 upgraded to 2x2 S22. However, almost certainly not before about 2030.
Yeah right. It's simple calculation: chances to build 2x2 = (traffic volume x good relations between the countries) * 100%
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Old August 25th, 2014, 04:54 PM   #12522
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The future lasts a long time. Eventually, we'll probably see part or even all of the DK22 west of the S7 upgraded to 2x2 S22. However, almost certainly not before about 2030.
In my opinion, S22 should be built in dual carriageway only from Russian border to intersection with A1 after 2030. Eastern part of A2 (from Siedlce to Belarusian border) is needed as late as in 2025.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #12523
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Germany, France, UK, Italy, and Spain each have a greater population than Ukraine. The CAP is unsustainable and will anyway have to be abandoned (at least in it's current socialist form) if the Doha Round at the WTO succeeds. Turkey hasn't joined because for the last ten years they have been moving away from the Principles defined in the TEU.
Absolutely agreed about the CAP, but with it playing such a huge role within the EU, you have to wonder if it ever will see any genuine reform. Even if Doha succeeds, I'm not sure France wants the inevitable fight with the incredibly powerful farming lobby there.

Janek, I know that's the theory, but I wonder if it will happen. Of course, vignettes would render the whole point moot...
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Old August 25th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #12524
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What is the current AADT on S22? It was only 500 at Chruściel in 2010, but they've opened the border crossing since.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 08:28 PM   #12525
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Janek, I know that's the theory, but I wonder if it will happen.
Why? There were quite certain plans to build toll booths there, but of course as government decided to abolish manual tolls this section will need to be incorporated into the new tolling system.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #12526
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Why? There were quite certain plans to build toll booths there, but of course as government decided to abolish manual tolls this section will need to be incorporated into the new tolling system.
It will, but I wonder if we won't see it kept toll-free for political purposes.

I suppose it depends on what happens with the replacement for manual tolling - it would obviously be included in a vignette scheme, but an electronic tolling scheme?

For what it's worth, vignettes would be absolutely senseless if the private motorways are excluded from the scheme.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 10:07 PM   #12527
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Sorry for interrupting the S22 topic, but I'm curious about another thing. Can someone tell me (or put a link in english or at least polish) what was the reason of building really long sections of dual carriageway DK roads during the past, instead of building proper motorways or expressways? I mean, big part (if not all) of DK1 and parts of DK7 and DK8 before 1990 were built in 2+2 profile with at-grade intersections. Also, is there a list of dual-carriageway DK roads from pre-90's period, which didn't have expressway status?

Poland entered into the transition period (1990s) with really small number of kilometres of "real" motorways (few hundreds), but it had few longer sections of 2+2 roads on some major routes (Warszawa-Gdanjsk, Warszawa-Katowice, Gdanjsk-Katowice...). It's interesting to compare ex-communist/socialist countries and development of it's road networks: ex-Czechoslovakia and ex-Yugoslavia had a pretty fair motorway/expressway networks from 70's and 80's, so newly established countries didn't have to build everything from scratch like Poland did
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Old August 25th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #12528
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Can someone tell me (or put a link in english or at least polish) what was the reason of building really long sections of dual carriageway DK roads during the past, instead of building proper motorways or expressways? I mean, big part (if not all) of DK1 and parts of DK7 and DK8 before 1990 were built in 2+2 profile with at-grade intersections.
Money/time/resources. They were planned as grade-separated motorways, but they ended up rushed out, so second carriageway was build (also, bypasses here and there) and this was it.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 10:19 PM   #12529
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The famous Gierkówka.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gierk%C3%B3wka
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Old August 25th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #12530
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Sometimes described as the infamous Gierkówka.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 10:51 PM   #12531
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A friend sent me this "funny" video
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Old August 25th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #12532
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
It's interesting to compare ex-communist/socialist countries and development of it's road networks: ex-Czechoslovakia and ex-Yugoslavia had a pretty fair motorway/expressway networks from 70's and 80's, so newly established countries didn't have to build everything from scratch like Poland did
Did ex-Yugoslavia have anything apart from the sections of motorway between Zagreb-Nis and the "autoput" to the Hungarian border?

I always thought it was odd that they built a fairly acceptable 2x2 from Tarnowo Podgorne to Wresznia, but completely failed to even put a normal 2x2 through Poznan on the north side. To this day, traffic is unbearable on the single carriageway section through Piatkowo in Poznan on the DK92.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #12533
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
ex-Czechoslovakia and ex-Yugoslavia had a pretty fair motorway/expressway networks from 70's and 80's, so newly established countries didn't have to build everything from scratch like Poland did
Czechoslovakia had pretty fair motorway/expressway network in 70 and 80's? They had only one real motorway between Prague and Bratislava and some very short unconnected pieces of expessway alike roads. Also ex-Yugoslavia had one major motorway from south to north... Where do you get your information from?
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Old August 26th, 2014, 12:37 AM   #12534
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Sorry for interrupting the S22 topic, but I'm curious about another thing. Can someone tell me (or put a link in english or at least polish) what was the reason of building really long sections of dual carriageway DK roads during the past, instead of building proper motorways or expressways? I mean, big part (if not all) of DK1 and parts of DK7 and DK8 before 1990 were built in 2+2 profile with at-grade intersections. Also, is there a list of dual-carriageway DK roads from pre-90's period, which didn't have expressway status?

Poland entered into the transition period (1990s) with really small number of kilometres of "real" motorways (few hundreds), but it had few longer sections of 2+2 roads on some major routes (Warszawa-Gdanjsk, Warszawa-Katowice, Gdanjsk-Katowice...). It's interesting to compare ex-communist/socialist countries and development of it's road networks: ex-Czechoslovakia and ex-Yugoslavia had a pretty fair motorway/expressway networks from 70's and 80's, so newly established countries didn't have to build everything from scratch like Poland did
It was absolutely enough for the amount of cars back then. Even normal single carriageways were enough. I don´t remember the exact figures, but there were just a "few" cars compared to that, what suddenly happened after 1989.
That was and is still is the big problem, that Poland had a "socialist" road network for a "capitalist" economy...
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Old August 26th, 2014, 12:51 AM   #12535
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Did ex-Yugoslavia have anything apart from the sections of motorway between Zagreb-Nis and the "autoput" to the Hungarian border?

I always thought it was odd that they built a fairly acceptable 2x2 from Tarnowo Podgorne to Wresznia, but completely failed to even put a normal 2x2 through Poznan on the north side. To this day, traffic is unbearable on the single carriageway section through Piatkowo in Poznan on the DK92.
Yugoslavia had these real 2x2 motorways before 1991:
- Autoput bratstva i jedinstva: Kranj-Ljubljana (~30 km), Zagreb-Slavonski Brod (~190 km), Sremska Mitrovica-Beograd-Niš (~280 km), from the 70's
- Rijeka-Grobnik, 1971. (10 km)
- Zagreb-Karlovac, 1971. (40 km)
- Maribor-Pesnica (today H2 in SLO), (~10 km)
+ many expressways within bigger cities (Beograd, Zagreb, Ljubljana, Skopje, Karlovac...).

Also, there were many half-profile motorways on long-distance routes, without at-grade crossings and with slight curves (which were converted to full-profile motorways recently):
- some sections of today's A1 and A2 in SLO
- rest of Autoput (SLO A2, HR A3, SRB A1 & A3, MK A1 & A2)
- Maribor-Zagreb (today A4 in SLO and A2 in HR)
- Beograd-Novi Sad (today A1 in SRB)
- Zenica-Sarajevo (today A1 in BIH)
- Rijeka bypass (today A7 in HR)
- Rijeka-tunnel Učka-Pazin (today A8 in HR)
- Grobnik-Oštrovica (today A6 in HR)
- Kragujevac-Batočina (SRB)
+ many city bypasses and shorter routes (Osijek bypass, Split bypass...)

sources: http://www.dars.si/Dokumenti/O_avtoc...ribor_109.aspx
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-pu...vo_i_jedinstvo
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1069431


Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Czechoslovakia had pretty fair motorway/expressway network in 70 and 80's? They had only one real motorway between Prague and Bratislava and some very short unconnected pieces of expessway alike roads. Also ex-Yugoslavia had one major motorway from south to north... Where do you get your information from?
For ex-YU - see what I wrote above. And let's not go to OT...

For ex-Czechoslovakia - not in the 70's and 80's, but in the moment Czechoslovakia fell apart (70's and 80's were years when intensive road building started). They had very similar principle as Yugoslavia; firstly to build half-profile motorways and later convert it to a full-profile. I think we should calculate such roads too, because in my opinion it's much better to drive on such road than on a "normal" one, because they have slight curves, denivelated crossings, good visibility, no left-turns, so speeds are higher (usually 90-100 km/h). Many routes around Praha were built in that way, if not as dual carriageways from the beginning, and also in Slovakia
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Last edited by Puležan; August 26th, 2014 at 12:57 AM.
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Old August 26th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #12536
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Also part of todays A3 motorway in Serbia from Sremska Mitrovica to Sid was dual carriageway in
1989.
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Old August 26th, 2014, 03:35 AM   #12537
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Y
For ex-Czechoslovakia - not in the 70's and 80's, but in the moment Czechoslovakia fell apart (70's and 80's were years when intensive road building started). They had very similar principle as Yugoslavia; firstly to build half-profile motorways and later convert it to a full-profile. I think we should calculate such roads too, because in my opinion it's much better to drive on such road than on a "normal" one, because they have slight curves, denivelated crossings, good visibility, no left-turns, so speeds are higher (usually 90-100 km/h). Many routes around Praha were built in that way, if not as dual carriageways from the beginning, and also in Slovakia
I think there is one common thing for Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia: pretty big transit from outside countries, in case of Yugoslavia from Turkey and Greece to Western Europe. In Czechoslovakia between Germany and Austria and southern Europe. Poland was surrounded by "friends" and had even second more sealed Iron Curtain on its east border. At that time we had as I remember only two fully open borders for international traffic between Poland and Soviet Union: Medyka and Terespol. There were few other border crossings but open only to people from eastern block like Kuznica. Also Baltic states were part of Soviet Union. So there was no needs to build East-West highways.I think we had most of the transit from Scandinavia and Finland to southern Europe but it was considerably small. Our economical and political situation was terrible in 80's. Not so many people owned cars. On the other hand we had very well developed railway system...
But if you consider dual carriageway roads we had couple of them too. Some longer one of them were: mentioned already Gierkowka between Warszawa and Katowice, Warszawa-Grojec, Warszawa-Modlin, Gdansk-Sopot-Gdynia bypass, Podwarpie-Myslowice-Tychy (todays S1) and then to Bielsko-Biala and Cieszyn, Katowice-Zory-Skoczow-Wisla, Katowice-Sosnowiec(today S86), Krakow-Myslenice, dabrowa Gornicza-Olkusz, Poznan-Wrzesnia, Lublin-Piaski, Szczecin-Goleniow... etc,etc
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Old August 26th, 2014, 04:05 AM   #12538
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I think Czechoslovakia at that time had a lot more cars per capita than Poland, same with Yugoslavia probably
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Old August 26th, 2014, 04:24 AM   #12539
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I don't think so. The differences were unnoticeable. Generally, whole Eastern Europe had much less cars per capita than in Western Europe.
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Old August 26th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #12540
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Tesla Superchargers coming to Poland in 2015

Tesla just published a map showing where they will build Supercharging stations in Europe in 2015. The first two in Poland appear to be near the A2/S3 and A1/A2 intersections. That seems to me like a good place to start. I guess several more will be built during 2016, probably along the A1, A2, and A4.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
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