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Old September 30th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #12741
rakcancer
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That is the whole point of this "joke". Poland receives money from Brussels...
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Old September 30th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #12742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salto_angel View Post
can you prove somehow, that there were cases of corruption in this case? Or is it just plain talk?
That is what many people think when they see noise barriers protecting nothing.

I'm not saying there was corruption, but you see a general attitude that when there is something that seems like wasteful spending (such as noise barriers like these), people think it is corruption.

I'm interested in the arguments to put up noise barriers here. I don't buy the 'we get the money from Brussels so we must spend it' theory. No country in Europe has noise barriers as extreme as Poland. There must('ve been) some kind of silly law mandating them.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #12743
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Might be something in the Polish constitution, that every citizen has the right to silence or something stupid like that, for exemple, the Intercontinental Hotel in Warsaw had to be build in a funny way just because people living behind it in smaller buildings have the right to a couple hours of sunlight according to the constitution
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Old September 30th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #12744
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In July a report from the Supreme Audit Office was published about those screens.

The main points:

- The regulations on noise were very severe in Poland, meaning the dangerous noise level was lower than for example in the UK which resulted in the need of building more barriers. In 2012 that level was raised after criticism averagely 3 to 6 dB's. (Details in the link);
- The measure above resulted in the change of the number of people that were endangered by noise, for example in Warsaw from 12% to 7%;
- The GDDKiA forced contractors to use noise barriers instead of other solutions like earth walls, lower speeds, ... ;
- Some barriers were built along terrains that are reserved for housing, but not yet occupied (6.1 km's along the A1);
- Nobody proposed buying up and removing sole properties that would force the use of a noise barrier;
- In a few cases noise barriers were constructed in bad places, f.e. parallel to an earth wall (4.1 km's on the A2), next to an empty habitat (600 m on the A2) ...;
- On the A2 there are places were barriers were forgotten;
- In 2013 the regulations which made noise barriers the preferred method were lifted;

http://www.nik.gov.pl/aktualnosci/ni...-miastach.html
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Old September 30th, 2014, 08:02 PM   #12745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piasto View Post

Might be something in the Polish constitution, that every citizen has the right to silence or something stupid like that, for exemple, the Intercontinental Hotel in Warsaw had to be build in a funny way just because people living behind it in smaller buildings have the right to a couple hours of sunlight according to the constitution
It is not the Constitution and it is not stupid at all. This is civil law and you are referring to what is called immisja. Basically, it is forbidden to take any action or omit to do something that would affect the neighboring properties more than it is necessary. For example, you are not allowed to build a skyscraper between one-storied houses – in that case, as you mentioned, local residents would be denied of much needed sunlight. But immisje can be much more complex than that. For instance, if your neighbor had a pile of explosive materials on his property, you would be allowed to indicate an indirect immisja, saying you fear for your safety.
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Last edited by Maciek_CK; September 30th, 2014 at 08:15 PM.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:01 PM   #12746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
- The GDDKiA forced contractors to use noise barriers instead of other solutions like earth walls, lower speeds, ... ;
http://www.nik.gov.pl/aktualnosci/ni...-miastach.html
So what is the reason behind the decision that GDDKiA forced contractors to use noise barriers in this case?
It is unbelievable how the worst possible and ugliest way noise barriers are built in Poland. I don't see many others solutions like earth, bushes, dense trees, concrete , brick or wood barriers. Everywhere just PVC and metal....
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:12 PM   #12747
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That is the whole point of this "joke". Poland receives money from Brussels...
I am not sure if you got my joke. Belgium should look for the money in Brussels as well....
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Old September 30th, 2014, 11:12 PM   #12748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
So what is the reason behind the decision that GDDKiA forced contractors to use noise barriers in this case?
It is unbelievable how the worst possible and ugliest way noise barriers are built in Poland. I don't see many others solutions like earth, bushes, dense trees, concrete , brick or wood barriers. Everywhere just PVC and metal....
Probably because:

Quote:
- In 2013 the regulations which made noise barriers the preferred method were lifted;
... There was some regulation that somehow advised noise barriers .

But it is true that some other methods could have been used. There are some cases where such barriers are built almost literally in the front yard's of people's houses because there is a busy way passing there.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 12:00 AM   #12749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
I didn't knowed that this section has 3 lanes per direction.
3 lanes per direction has section from junction 'Lublin Sławinek' to 'Lublin Rudnik' (10,2 kilometres lenght) - on this section will cumulate traffic from three national roads: 12, 17 and 19. Others section will have 2 lanes per direction with reserve for third additional lane.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 01:04 AM   #12750
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Western bypass (part of S11) of Poznan













The pipeline cutting through the motorway:





aerofoto-kaczmarczyk.com
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Old October 1st, 2014, 09:43 AM   #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Western bypass (part of S11) of Poznan

The pipeline cutting through the motorway:





aerofoto-kaczmarczyk.com
How are they going to get around that pipeline? I see there are some columns on the right-hand side - is that for a viaduct to carry the road over the pipeline?
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Old October 1st, 2014, 10:38 AM   #12752
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I think that is THE pipeline from Russia to Germany, right? The Druzhba pipeline.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 10:47 AM   #12753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

I'm not saying there was corruption, but you see a general attitude that when there is something that seems like wasteful spending (such as noise barriers like these), people think it is corruption.
You did not say but "only" suggested it. Which was taken purerly out of nothing.

There was NIK report on the barriers and the situation will now change.

But there is completly NO information that the barriers in Poland are constructed because of corruption. This is purely an urban myth which is copied all over Europe. Also by you. And I would expect a bit more from mod in this area, at least not to pass such bull...it.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 10:53 AM   #12754
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You are not reading correctly what I was writing about corruption. Not once did I write I think there was corruption. I write that cases like these makes the general population think it seems like corruption, whether it's in Poland, Spain or elsewhere.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 11:10 AM   #12755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think that is THE pipeline from Russia to Germany, right? The Druzhba pipeline.
Yes, it is. This pipeline doesn't seem to have caused so much trouble for road construction in other places which it passes through, so why it is causing such a long delay for S11 is a mystery
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Old October 1st, 2014, 12:05 PM   #12756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
So what is the reason behind the decision that GDDKiA forced contractors to use noise barriers in this case?
Because in most cases there were no good alternatives available (within reasonable budget). The only other way of lowering the noise is lowering the speed, but on A/S roads simply lowering the speed limit achieves nothing, drivers ignore the speed limits on motorways for whatever reason.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 12:24 PM   #12757
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Lowering speed limits to reduce noise doesn't help that much. Trucks emit the most noise and they are unaffected by lower speed limits on motorways and expressways.

Most countries have some kind of 'exemption scheme' where you don't have to build noise barriers in front of every single house in a rural area.

For example, you won't see noise barriers this extreme elsewhere:


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Old October 1st, 2014, 01:14 PM   #12758
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Or this https://maps.google.pl/?ll=50.092772...,314.21,,0,3.2
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Old October 1st, 2014, 02:09 PM   #12759
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Sometimes they build barriers even when people don't want it. Like here
https://www.google.pl/maps/place/D%C...fdbb9e78f8a48c
I remember that there were some protests against barriers here (people claimed that barriers will obstruct the view from the road, so I think that's why they eventually built transparent ones here)

and sometimes if someone don't want those barriers in front of their house, they leave gaps, like here https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.50013...wwCbhotk3A!2e0
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Old October 1st, 2014, 02:32 PM   #12760
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This is insane, you're transforming Poland to Gaza.
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