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Old November 8th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #13161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
lol, you call this houses worth of building noise screens?

[...]

Just because there are few houses around motorway, it doesn't mean we have to built automatically everywhere noise screens. Unfortunately in Poland we say: "szlachcic na zagrodzie rowny wojewodzie...". which in very simple words means: I don't give a sh...t about others, I am most important here ...
OMG so you tell us, people who live in more dence populated areas have more right to be protected from traffic noice? Sorry, but this so absurd.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 02:24 PM   #13162
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First of all this picture shows that Poland is way below any standards in urban planning - there is total chaos. And as long as we have such badly planned cities and towns there will be noise barriers everywhere.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 02:30 PM   #13163
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The measures to protect people from noise need to be appropriate. That means noise screens may be necessary from time to time, but Poland is exaggerating it by placing enormous noise barriers to protect only a few houses, some of which are really too far from the motorway to need such a huge noise barrier. Not to mention all the noise barriers that protect industrial areas or even undeveloped land.

All countries have noise barriers, but none to the extend Poland has them. Who places huge barriers in dense urban locations? Only Poland does that.

It's a shame, because it ruins the view of the country. They are very unattractive and a disaster in urban aesthetics.

Views like this are unusual. The road is basically a tunnel without a roof. And that for some regular DW-road.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 02:37 PM   #13164
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
All countries have noise barriers, but none to the extend Poland has them. Who places huge barriers in dense urban locations? Only Poland does that.
It's a shame, because it ruins the view of the country. They are very unattractive and a disaster in urban aesthetics.
Yes hugh ones, but it's okay to put them (apart from the height) in location like at S69 shown on the pics posted by Kemo.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 02:50 PM   #13165
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I think there's some hope for a positive change, e.g. they are building a new railway to the airport in Gdansk and the news of the day is, that they decided to put half the amount of noice barriers then it was planned at beginning (3 years ago). The eviromental decision can be changed due to the liberalisation of the sound barriers regulations.

source (in polish): http://www.dziennikbaltycki.pl/artyk...-pkm,id,t.html
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Old November 8th, 2014, 03:11 PM   #13166
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You compare apples and oranges. I guess the NL motorway was built earlier than the houses around. No one cared about noise when the houses were built. People moved there although they knew that it's noisy there. Maybe because the low rental price. The traffic increased over the past decades.

The Polish S69 is a new motorway. The houses were built earlier in a quite area. It's a totally different situation! The experience and the law are different today.
Not necessarily, there is a lot of places in Nederland and in other countries that motorways were build after houses. But this is not my point here. I am not against noise barriers at all. I was already asking before question on this forum: why so many and why so high (and why so ugly too).
Why in Poland barriers are such a monstrous size? Why they are put in places where they don't belong - in the middle of fields which we have a lots of examples of them in this forum before. We have freshly opened motorway in beautiful mountainous Beskid Zywiecki and what driver can see: a green metal-plastic 5 meters high wall!! It makes that thing a big nonsense. It makes our motorways much, much more expensive, longer to build, requiring more maintenance and it is very unpleasant to drive on.
Why there is no other solution for example dense vegetation along motorway or earth, wood combinations or walls covered by ivy..... in places where they should be? Why in Poland so many people right away stay for YES or for NO and never think that best solution are very rarely so radical between nothing and everything. Maybe instead choice between build something big and not to build at all there is something smaller, less costly...
When I ask the question why do we need these barriers in the middle of nowhere or why they are so huge or why they has to be so ugly there is always someone saying: well because it was in design prepared by GDDKiA, (so it is impossible to change that), well because there are two houses behind so we need build 500 meter long of 5 meter high wall (no way to make that smaller, shorter or replace with something else), well... because other solutions are not that efficient and require different approach and maybe cost more (really?) Tons of problems that are impossible to deal with. Simply NIEdasie.
And few examples of other than polish noise barriers:


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Last edited by rakcancer; November 8th, 2014 at 04:55 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #13167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The measures to protect people from noise need to be appropriate. That means noise screens may be necessary from time to time, but Poland is exaggerating it by placing enormous noise barriers to protect only a few houses, some of which are really too far from the motorway to need such a huge noise barrier. Not to mention all the noise barriers that protect industrial areas or even undeveloped land.

All countries have noise barriers, but none to the extend Poland has them. Who places huge barriers in dense urban locations? Only Poland does that.

It's a shame, because it ruins the view of the country. They are very unattractive and a disaster in urban aesthetics.
Chris we need you here in Poland to explain that very basic stuff. Thanks for your feedback.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #13168
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Why in Poland barriers are such a monstrous size? Why they are put in places where they don't belong - in the middle of fields which we have a lots of examples of them in this forum before
Agree. But you've pointed out a pic where are houses .
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Old November 8th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #13169
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Originally Posted by salto_angel View Post
First of all this picture shows that Poland is way below any standards in urban planning - there is total chaos. And as long as we have such badly planned cities and towns there will be noise barriers everywhere.
Where you see chaos? Probably you want to live again in communist times where there was huge ugly bulidings and everything was according the plan...
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Old November 8th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #13170
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This photo is probably photographed in a rural area, which explains why are houses so spread out.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #13171
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Where you see chaos? Probably you want to live again in communist times where there was huge ugly bulidings and everything was according the plan...
Actually, most of those houses were built during the communist times, and some also before. It is in fact quite typical for the industrial part of Silesia, also in CZ.

Although, you are right in this, the urban planning deteriorated badly after the fall of communism, in the first years. But the main problems were then rather inside the cities and the unregulated urban sprawl.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #13172
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This photo is probably photographed in a rural area, which explains why are houses so spread out.
If I have it right, it is photographed in the most dense inhabited area of the East Europe.. the Silesian industrial area.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #13173
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If I have it right, it is photographed in the most dense inhabited area of the East Europe.. the Silesian industrial area.
Actually the Silesian industrial area ends more to the north.

This is Galicia. Part of former Austria-Hungary.
Compare random mountainous area in Galicia:
https://maps.google.pl/maps?ll=49.88...38581&t=h&z=15

with a random mountainous area in Sudetes - part of former Prussia
https://maps.google.pl/maps?ll=50.89...77162&t=h&z=14

Can you spot the difference?

This is one of the reasons why it is so problematic to plan and build S7 south of Kraków.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 07:57 PM   #13174
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Szczecin, Klucz interchange (A6/S3)
I didn't realize that main way leads to Germany and you need to exit S3 in order to continue on S3.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 09:34 PM   #13175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't understand why noise barriers need to be so tall in Poland. They are almost uniformly more than 5 meters tall.
Higher noise standards?
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Instead of building a 'Berlin Wall' in front of the house, they installed a low noise barrier where you can see through.

A28 Hessenpoort-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
If it's more efffective than "Berlin Walls"then we should buy your technology.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 09:41 PM   #13176
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Higher noise standards?
I don't know the arguments for particular noise barriers, but to me it seems they install noise barriers at any location where noise exceeds 50 dB, without tailoring it to the situation. Often you can install lower or shorter noise barriers.

Also, installing noise barriers at every location where the levels exceed 50 dB (or 48 dB Lden) is impractical (as the numerous examples in Poland show). That's why countries have developed alternatives, such as higher noise limits, silent pavement or insulating houses. In addition, it is not necessary to install noise barriers at industrial or office parks, not to mention undeveloped land.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 09:45 PM   #13177
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Where you see chaos? Probably you want to live again in communist times where there was huge ugly bulidings and everything was according the plan...


Seems you know little about Polish urban planning. It was the best or one of the best in Europe before WW2. Spend some time looking at Polish cities in Google maps and you'll find out it is going out of any standards.
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Old November 8th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #13178
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
silent pavement
Does Poland not use pa (= porous asphalt) at all?

btw, the German shortcut is OPA (= grandpa; offenporiger Asphalt)
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Old November 8th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #13179
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Noise barrier fetish haha

Speaking of which, are there a lot of NIMBYs in rural/suburban areas of Poland???

P.S.
Also:
If the owners want to do something about it, then they should just buy sound-proofing or sound insulation walls and windows that they can place in their homes
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Old November 8th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #13180
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First of all this picture shows that Poland is way below any standards in urban planning - there is total chaos. And as long as we have such badly planned cities and towns there will be noise barriers everywhere.
omg Polish negativity is so tiring, it is starting to infect international threads. please give me a break and move to a country that is a perfect paradise on earth. I've travelled Poland, Europe and NA far and wide, and I really don't see such extensive sprawl or chaos in Poland. Yes it could be improved and yes they could curb advertising. Try driving outside the old city of Toronto where 3 million live in utter urban sprawl, where you have to drive miles to get to anything. sorry maybe it's just that I am getting too sensitive to exaggerated way Poles express themselves in any language, on the Polish thread and here, so generalized and negative in every way, it seems that they hate their country with an enormous passion, but no one else understands it.
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