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Old November 19th, 2014, 01:01 PM   #13261
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Yesterday, a contract was signed with Budimex for optimization and construction of Jarocin bypass (S11). It will feature: S 2x2 ~7,5km, S 1x2 ~2,5km and GP 1x2 ~3km. Cost: € 69,5 million, construction time: November 2014– August 2017.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 07:32 PM   #13262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Hahaha, you complain but you admit you were provoking him too. If you drove normal 50 km/h sure he cannot complain, but if you slow to 20 clearly you were trying to get some reaction, which if we consider road safety, is relatively reckless... I do concur about the 40-60 ish range men to be most aggressive in my experience (and for stupid reasons!)
If folks like that can be so easily provoked, their driving licence should possibly be held to review. I had a similar situation some time ago, some guy from a small village (RKR plates) in a BMW 7-series was hugging my arse and flashing his lights while I was entering Waksmund wanting me to either move over (on a two-lane village road with sidewalks) or speed up (was already doing 65-70 - in a 50)

After being stuck with that idiot behind me for 500-600 metres I approached my destination (the house of my in-laws) and the idiot had by this time annoyed me enough that I decided to drop a gear or two instead of tapping my brakes to scare the bejeezus out of him. One of the good things about driving a 1500 złotych beater over a >50K or maybe even 100K BMW is that I'm not worried about fender benders...
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Old November 19th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #13263
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S5 Poznań – Wrocław: Kaczkowo –Korzeńsko

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Old November 19th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #13264
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I
Hahaha, you complain but you admit you were provoking him too. If you drove normal 50 km/h sure he cannot complain, but if you slow to 20 clearly you were trying to get some reaction, which if we consider road safety, is relatively reckless... I do concur about the 40-60 ish range men to be most aggressive in my experience (and for stupid reasons!)
Sure, but I started off by driving 40km/h in a 40km/h zone. What got me was that he came hard up behind me flashing his lights, I ignored him, he started with the horn, I ignored him... and he kept doing it. It was only after about half a minute I thought "screw this" and slowed right down. Honestly, I'm no stranger to speeding, but there's a time and a place for it, and it's not in the centre of the city at 3pm.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #13265
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S69 Bielsko-Biała - Żywiec, Wilkowice interchange



Source and more: http://s69-bielsko-zywiec.pl/index.p...d=46&Itemid=43 .
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Old November 19th, 2014, 09:30 PM   #13266
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Old November 19th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #13267
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Another problem was unbelievable stupid government policy starting from 1990.
In 1990 we had 3rd world quality roads in Poland but we had rail tracks
on the level of Western Europe in some aspects. There were almost 9000 km of double track lines and 11 000 electrified tracks. In Sweden there is not much more then 1000 km double tracks , in Holland all tracks is not much more then 2000 km , Malaysia today is dreaming about building at least 1 double track elecrified line from North to South.
I mention double track lines becasue they have usually much better parametres then single tracks, doble tracks have very often vmax 120 km/h , single tracks are often curvy local tracks.
We didn`t have roads but we had great rail tracks that was alternative for roads.
What government did , destroyed rail track with completely no investement and in the result about year 2000 we had nothing , no roads , no rail tracks.
We have TIR on village roads , many other cars and no alternative.
Today with EU preassure they try to repair some tracks.
Even today we benefit with the infrastructure that existed 30 years ago.
After some investment you can go today by train from Poznan to Gdansk in 3 hours , how many hours you need by car , when will be S5 ready ? in 2022 ?
Same with S7 , it will be ready in 2022 maybe but train today can go in 6 hours from Krakow through Warszawa to Gdansk , even S11 - that will be ready in 2030 but they are all the time improving rail track and time from Katowice to Poznan is better every year

I was often looking at number of kilometres of motorways in Holland , UK , Germany
but when I started to compare number of kilometres of rail tracks I was very surprised Poland in 1990 was not worse then Italy , Holand , Sweden and other countries and even the speed 3,5 -4 hours for 300 km on many tracks wasn`t that bad
I understand we didn`t have money , we were not able to build roads , well why at least we couldn`t maintain rail tracks,
the whole goverment strategy was : let people travel by mini buses on village roads, let TIR go through village roads
That strategy I know very well from India and Pakistan. There are only 2 countries in Europe where
you have mini buses everywhere - Poland and Turkey

Even today we have poor road infrastructure , what is the road connection from Krakow to Warszawa ,
it`s difficult to find country in Europe that 2 biggest towns have such road connection , same Warszawa - Gdansk.
Hungary is 10 years ahead of us

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Old November 19th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #13268
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Let's put trucks on tracks! Switzerland can do it...
Seriously you are touching whole huge topic here. Poland is going generally in right direction. There was such a need of developing motorway infrastructure that nobody can say it makes no sense. On the other hand railway system got terribly neglected in last 25 years or even 35 years... But it looks like next 10-15 years there will be lots of investments in railway network. It is happening already. Whole lines between Warsaw and Gdansk, Lodz, Bilaystok, between Przemysl and Krakow to mention most important are reconstructed. Railway station buildings are restored. Unfortunately there will be no return to complete network from before 1990. Lots of minor lines were closed forever...
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Old November 19th, 2014, 11:01 PM   #13269
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Motorway investment is much more urgent. Less than 5% of travel in Poland is by train. You can spend money only once, so it makes more sense to invest where it gives the biggest return.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 11:16 PM   #13270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtybinka View Post
Another problem was unbelievable stupid government policy starting from 1990.
In 1990 we had 3rd world quality roads in Poland but we had rail tracks
on the level of Western Europe in some aspects. There were almost 9000 km of double track lines and 11 000 electrified tracks. In Sweden there is not much more then 1000 km double tracks , in Holland all tracks is not much more then 2000 km , Malaysia today is dreaming about building at least 1 double track elecrified line from North to South.
I mention double track lines becasue they have usually much better parametres then single tracks, doble tracks have very often vmax 120 km/h , single tracks are often curvy local tracks.
We didn`t have roads but we had great rail tracks that was alternative for roads.
What government did , destroyed rail track with completely no investement and in the result about year 2000 we had nothing , no roads , no rail tracks.
We have TIR on village roads , many other cars and no alternative.
Today with EU preassure they try to repair some tracks.
Even today we benefit with the infrastructure that existed 30 years ago.
After some investment you can go today by train from Poznan to Gdansk in 3 hours , how many hours you need by car , when will be S5 ready ? in 2022 ?
Same with S7 , it will be ready in 2022 maybe but train today can go in 6 hours from Krakow through Warszawa to Gdansk , even S11 - that will be ready in 2030 but they are all the time improving rail track and time from Katowice to Poznan is better every year

I was often looking at number of kilometres of motorways in Holland , UK , Germany
but when I started to compare number of kilometres of rail tracks I was very surprised Poland in 1990 was not worse then Italy , Holand , Sweden and other countries and even the speed 3,5 -4 hours for 300 km on many tracks wasn`t that bad
I understand we didn`t have money , we were not able to build roads , well why at least we couldn`t maintain rail tracks,
the whole goverment strategy was : let people travel by mini buses on village roads, let TIR go through village roads
That strategy I know very well from India and Pakistan. There are only 2 countries in Europe where
you have mini buses everywhere - Poland and Turkey

Even today we have poor road infrastructure , what is the road connection from Krakow to Warszawa ,
it`s difficult to find country in Europe that 2 biggest towns have such road connection , same Warszawa - Gdansk.
Hungary is 10 years ahead of us
Poland still has a lot of that railway infrastructure. The electrified lines you speak of are still there, the problem is they were poorly built and poorly maintained during communist era. Doing something poorly is like not doing it at all when public safety is concerned. The rail links between major cities are good to very good and by end of this coming year should be largely very good when Pendolino arrives. The good thing is that Poland still has the right of way for the rail lines and when demand and financial resources align there will be huge investments here and actually that has already started.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Last edited by Urbanista1; November 19th, 2014 at 11:30 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 11:43 PM   #13271
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Lublin, last access (U/C) from city to bypass ( Poligonowa street --> interchange 'Lublin Czechów') :

Direction bypass:






Direction Lublin:



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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #13272
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Modernized DK94 in Dąbrowa Górnicza, lighted with LED

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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:35 AM   #13273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Motorway investment is much more urgent. Less than 5% of travel in Poland is by train.
Passenger, maybe. Cargo is other thing alltogether. That's first thing.
Second thing, EU funds split is supposed to be 40/60 between rail and roads. I'm not too picky about single digits, but for now it's something like 20/80 and Polish government was crying how unfair this underfunding of roads was.

And HSR investment, so called "Y" line, was booed out as too expensive, when it was 16% of motorway budget per year or something like this. I'm not fan of HSR as proposed in Poland, but imbalance is imbalance.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:38 AM   #13274
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It seems wrong to have publicly-funded railways though... can't just privatise the entire setup? It is not like the railway is open to any person wanting to drive on it... In Canada the railways were privatised in the 1990's and the companies have thrived and rail business is booming. They have even bought rail lines in the USA, like we are slowly invading and taking over

It's important to note advantages and disadvantages of rail - it often takes so much time to load and unload and obtain goods by rail it might not make sense. PL is so "spread evenly" and physically small rail shipments inside the country don't seem too logical (but PL to France makes a good case...)
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:42 AM   #13275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Motorway investment is much more urgent. Less than 5% of travel in Poland is by train. You can spend money only once, so it makes more sense to invest where it gives the biggest return.
You have to take into consideration that it was not always the case. It is now because cars are much cheaper and railway network in Poland has been in such a bad shape since 1990. 5% of travel in european country with well developed railway network is IMHO a shame. That ratio should be restored to at least average european level. We don't need to build new railways in Poland , we need to rebuild them...But of course it doesn't mean motorways are not needed... we need both railway and motorways for our economy like human needs oxygen for its existence...
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:49 AM   #13276
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It seems wrong to have publicly-funded railways though... can't just privatise the entire setup? It is not like the railway is open to any person wanting to drive on it... In Canada the railways were privatised in the 1990's and the companies have thrived and rail business is booming. They have even bought rail lines in the USA, like we are slowly invading and taking over

It's important to note advantages and disadvantages of rail - it often takes so much time to load and unload and obtain goods by rail it might not make sense. PL is so "spread evenly" and physically small rail shipments inside the country don't seem too logical (but PL to France makes a good case...)
You are generally right but you can't compare US or Canadian railway system to Europe. Population of North America even on east coast is much less dense than in Europe. That is why there will be no real high speed train in N.A. people will use either cars or planes. And congrats Canadians on getting piece of US railways
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:57 AM   #13277
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Passenger, maybe. Cargo is other thing alltogether. That's first thing.
Second thing, EU funds split is supposed to be 40/60 between rail and roads. I'm not too picky about single digits, but for now it's something like 20/80 and Polish government was crying how unfair this underfunding of roads was.
Governments should be allow to decide the splits/priorities themselves, not the EU.

That 60/40 rule is fine in Germany which has almost completed its motorway network or Holland which has completed its network.

But the train should ALWAYS beat the car from Warsaw to Berlin ( centres) and it does not nowadays and that points to underinvestment. It should beat the car by an hour at least on a run like that. Try beating the train London - Paris in a car.

This is an argument for rail investment along the A2 and A4 corridors, I have no opinion on the rest of the network as I know nothing of it.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 02:25 AM   #13278
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It seems wrong to have publicly-funded railways though... can't just privatise the entire setup?
Right after roads, waterways and airspace.

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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Governments should be allow to decide the splits/priorities themselves, not the EU.
Get EU funds, play by EU rules. Don't want the rules? Wave goodbye to funds. Any other way, and we won't have any nice things.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 03:11 AM   #13279
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Get EU funds, play by EU rules. Don't want the rules? Wave goodbye to funds. Any other way, and we won't have any nice things.
EU Rules are designed to divert EU Transport funds to expensive High Speed rail tunnels under the Alps like the Brenner Base Project. Follow the money!
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Old November 20th, 2014, 04:32 AM   #13280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It seems wrong to have publicly-funded railways though... can't just privatise the entire setup? It is not like the railway is open to any person wanting to drive on it... In Canada the railways were privatised in the 1990's and the companies have thrived and rail business is booming. They have even bought rail lines in the USA, like we are slowly invading and taking over

It's important to note advantages and disadvantages of rail - it often takes so much time to load and unload and obtain goods by rail it might not make sense. PL is so "spread evenly" and physically small rail shipments inside the country don't seem too logical (but PL to France makes a good case...)
passenger rail is very much still a public institution in canada. Freight rail was privatized in the 1990's, which really makes sense. Now of course this has lead to a mass abandonment of rail lines across the country as the not profitable freight lines get cut.

European freight rail is very, very different than North American freight rail. North American freight rail actually carries much more than European freight does, the euro rail network is geared more towards passenger travel while North American (largely) private ownership of trackage means that freight is king with passenger service relegated to the sidelines.

freight is also used largely for long distance hauls, I.E. Chicago - NYC. only intercity shipping, trucks still do the final couple miles within the cities. CN and CP have only 2 distribution centres in Toronto.

Freight is much cheaper than trucking it as well which means cargo which isn't time valuable is usually done by rail. (cars, oil, wheat, etc.)

Canada's passenger rail system is not only publicly run, but expanding. We are finally planning our first HSR line.

freight shipping in Poland would have to be internationally oriented, shipping between cities would largely be done by trucks.



Eastern Europe badly needs to get its motorway network built out, Western Europes network is done and can afford to spend it on rail upgrades, but Poland needs a motorway network first IMO. Just don't over-do it like Spain and Portugal did.
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