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Old November 20th, 2014, 09:23 AM   #13281
ka__zet
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
EU Rules are designed to divert EU Transport funds to expensive High Speed rail tunnels under the Alps like the Brenner Base Project. Follow the money!
Gee, they follow some kind of policy, HOW DARE THEY.


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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Eastern Europe badly needs to get its motorway network built out, Western Europes network is done and can afford to spend it on rail upgrades, but Poland needs a motorway network first IMO. Just don't over-do it like Spain and Portugal did.
This approach will ensure that there won't be any substantial railroad network left, because now it's "let's spend 90% funds on the roades", and after 2024 it will be "we have decent motorway network, few remains of railroad network and no substantial funds for infrastructure development. Resurrection of rail makes no economic sense".

It already happens. So, yes, by all means, do develop A+S roads as planned, but also at least spend enough money for rail maintenance, ferFSMssakes.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 12:23 PM   #13282
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Eastern Europe badly needs to get its motorway network built out, Western Europes network is done and can afford to spend it on rail upgrades, but Poland needs a motorway network first IMO. Just don't over-do it like Spain and Portugal did.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:19 PM   #13283
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That 60/40 rule is fine in Germany which has almost completed its motorway network or Holland which has completed its network.
Indeed, same goes for the noise barriers and cycling network. We have incomplete motorway, road network but somehow we're building noise barriers and cycling network because EU funds are available. I think this is ridiculous. Same goes for the railroad network, there's money for the ETCS systems and we are building GSM-R antennas but the railroad tracks are in terrible state.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #13284
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Gee, they follow some kind of policy, HOW DARE THEY.
They invented the policy to divert the EU money back to themselves, so of COURSE they follow policy. You could build an enormous 200kph HSR network in Poland for the cost of one little tunnel in Germany/Austria/Italy

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but also at least spend enough money for rail maintenance, ferFSMssakes.
EU Money does not go to maintenance, that is your problem.

Anyway. High Speed Trains gotta go somewhere and somewhere in your case is Germany where they are not ready yet.

So go co-ordinate with the Germans like the French do. France is still building a HSR from Paris to South Germany via Strasbourg according to a plan from 1992. It ain't finished yet. Once they are at/past Dresden and Berlin then yes.

Get ready for 2020 , starting now.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-sp...CE_Network.png

Last edited by sponge_bob; November 20th, 2014 at 04:46 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 04:52 PM   #13285
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
They invented the policy to divert the EU money back to themselves, so of COURSE they follow policy.
Yeah, but what else is new? Everyone wants their money back, they are just best at it.


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EU Money does not go to maintenance, that is your problem.
Yes, I know (and many local governance bodies don't; I expect lot of crumbling stadiums and aquaparks in the long run). But maintenance of rail network was deferred to the point that on most of network it can be classified as "revitalisation" and EU Money can be used.

Also, HSR is just an example (as analogue of A roads). I'm not necesarilly a fan. However, it *was* coordinated and scheduled for 2020. Now it's postponed to 2030, a.k.a. never.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 05:08 PM   #13286
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You could build an enormous 200kph HSR network in Poland for the cost of one little tunnel in Germany/Austria/Italy
Often these base tunnels are build to avoid some other neighboring EU country.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #13287
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Originally Posted by ka__zet View Post
Also, HSR is just an example (as analogue of A roads). I'm not necesarilly a fan. However, it *was* coordinated and scheduled for 2020. Now it's postponed to 2030, a.k.a. never.
Same thing happened in Ireland. By the time the rail network KNEW they were in trouble from Motorways ( c 2008 or 2009) it was too late. The money was gone.

Express buses that are speed limited to 100kph now beat the train City Centre to City Centre and the railway network is facing closure because the investment cost to make it competitive on journey time is prohibitive.

The UK, at least, recognised this danger in the 1970s and built a pretty good 200kph Rail Network to compete with motorway networks then nearing completion. So did the French by the late 1970s when they started on their TGV network.

A train MUST beat the car or express bus, on journey time, from City Centre to City Centre and this is not now the case from Wroclaw to Dresden or from Warsaw to Berlin.

This will critically endanger the economic viability of core railway lines in Poland if not addressed soon. The buses will take all the business.

But as this is the highways forum you gotta go fix your problems somewhere else on SSC
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Old November 20th, 2014, 05:35 PM   #13288
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One other thing Ka Zet!

Once a journey takes 4 hours ONLAND then Air Travel becomes competitive.

In the case of London - Paris the train beats the plane because the airports are not in the City Centres and you gotta do security as well when you get there.

So Wizzair and Ryanair can do a lot of business Warsaw-Berlin but they cannot beat a 3 hour road or rail route normally owing to security etc. The flight itself is quick.

You are also slightly confusing 2 separate things. Let me explain.

1. Maintenance. You have a 160kph track, you do not maintain it, so for safety the track is limited to 100kph. This is lack of maintenance.

2. Underinvestment. You have a 160kph track, you know the train gotta do 200kph to beat the bus/car. You do not invest to improve the tracks so they can carry 200kph trains.

Sometimes you do 2 to fix both 1 and 2. I think Poland is more guilty of 2 and not of 1 but I may be wrong.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 05:52 PM   #13289
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The UK, at least, recognised this danger in the 1970s and built a pretty good 200kph Rail Network to compete with motorway networks then nearing completion.
We had a 200km/h rail network in the 1870s, only trains couldn't go that fast until the 1930s. What we got in the 1970s was a large amount of rolling stock that could run at that speed and some other upgrades (less so for commuter routes).

While the UK was building motorways, it was closing railways and didn't build any meaningful new track mileage outside of some metro lines. We could only afford to make our railways work by closing routes.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 07:48 PM   #13290
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We could only afford to make our railways work by closing routes.
I'm not surprised. You have at least 6 different Guages ( widths)

4 kinds of Narrow Guage, Standard and Russian ( Broad) guage.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 08:35 PM   #13291
ka__zet
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One other thing Ka Zet!
Once a journey takes 4 hours ONLAND then Air Travel becomes competitive.
We are diversifying our offtopic, I see

Poland is so far "protected" for danger of inner-country flight becoming competitive. Mostly by the fact that most airports aren't well integrated into transport network and relatively small distances. Things like Gdansk-Krakow happen, ofcourse.

Quote:
You are also slightly confusing 2 separate things.
Nope, but I might have been unclear.

Quote:
Sometimes you do 2 to fix both 1 and 2. I think Poland is more guilty of 2 and not of 1 but I may be wrong.
Unfortunately, you are. See speed map (legend is self-explanatory):



And it does not takes into account thousands of places where trains slow down to a crawl because there's 300 meters of speed restriction, or unshielded crossing.

Also, since 1989 Poland dismantled seven thousand kilometers of rail network and built... twenty kilometers (of which 1.5 was built by Germans and belong to Usedomer Bäderbahn GmbH).

But we indeed should move to POLAND | Railways
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Last edited by ka__zet; November 20th, 2014 at 10:23 PM. Reason: EDIT: evolution
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Old November 20th, 2014, 09:39 PM   #13292
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What a beautiful FORGOTTEN cool network
On the rail map above that ka_zet presented you can see what I mentioned before big number
of double tracks (double line) almost 9000 km. That network looks really great
compared to motorways network :-)
This network even allows spliting cargo and passanger traffic
You can see in corridor Krakow - Katowice - Wroclaw 2 double tracks
(cargo traffic could go from Wroclaw through Jelcz , Opole , Strzelce , Oswiecim to Krakow
passanger through Brzeg , Kedzierzyn , Trzebinia)
Same to Szczecin you can use Odrzanka , or go through Poznan
or 3 lines in corridor Krakow/Katowice - Warszawa
That even in UK would be luxury. That`s why I was complaining why they didn`t use
such potential for 20 years.
I think there are only 5 short lines to build and make all perfect
1) Krakow Podleze - Tymbark that will connect area south from Krakow , Nowy Sacz , Krynica , Krosno even
2) Warszawa Modlin - Plock
3) Busko - Zdroj - Zabno/Dabrowa Tarnowska on the route Kielce - Tarnow
4)Lodz - Piotrkow
5)and some connection joining Olesnica with Sieradz on the route Wroclaw - Lodz , that could be maybe even a line to new brown coal valey
Belchatow - Wielun

This infrastructure needs lot of reparations but it exists and that`s most important
In America they could only dream about something like this , same South America , Asia and many other countries
I would even say that our network is optimal , in Czech Rep they have very dense network but 80% of lines single track
and I think to all that small villages you can reach by slow curvy single track in CZ bus/car would be more economical
I think in long term could be impossible to maintain such dense network like in CZ

Last edited by jtybinka; November 20th, 2014 at 10:37 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:57 PM   #13293
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Moderators may I ask to clean up this mess? Thank you.
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Old November 21st, 2014, 07:23 PM   #13294
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Quote:
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I'm not surprised. You have at least 6 different Guages ( widths)

4 kinds of Narrow Guage, Standard and Russian ( Broad) guage.
I was talking UK, not Poland, as was pretty obvious from the sentence before the one you quoted.

But yes, the principle of saving the railways by rationalising the system would probably work in Poland too (though that is off topic here).
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 05:02 PM   #13295
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 05:14 PM   #13296
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So, there is a sound barrier to protect the drivers on each highway from being disturbed by the intersecting highway. What's next?
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 05:55 PM   #13297
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probably noise barriers in the subway.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 05:58 PM   #13298
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So, there is a sound barrier to protect the drivers on each highway from being disturbed by the intersecting highway. What's next?
The noise barrier is there because of this.

It's always worth to check if there is a reason for placing a noise barrier before making laugh of it.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 06:05 PM   #13299
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I am still laughing...
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 06:36 PM   #13300
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