daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:10 AM   #13461
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
It is planned by the region, but it is not yet included in the government's plan.

Sorry for extending the page
There has been articles in the Czech media about Poland having plans of building substantial part of S8 S3 in three years. I am rather confident that this is doable in Poland, however I know that this is absolutely unimaginable in CZ.

What are the reasonable times, in which Poland would be able to get the motorway to the border? Or does this government´s plan inclusion is crucial. I mean independent on the Czech side? I guess there won´t be a rush to it, if the Czech side won´t give believable evidence that it would be able to get to the border with D11 at around the same time.

There are many Czechs that are completely unaware about how massively is CZ lacking behind in motorways construction. Maybe the S8 S3 could be a wake up call.

Last edited by Surel; December 12th, 2014 at 12:29 AM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:15 AM   #13462
JanVL
Registered User
 
JanVL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Antwerpen/Poznań
Posts: 5,739
Likes (Received): 82113

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Stupid Polish alcohol laws; till quite recently, you would go to jail if caught on a bike with more than 0,05%, your driver's license being revoked

Curiously, it's still better to drive 200 km/h through a town than to drive normally after 2 beers, as you get a "small" ticket for the first one (your license wouldn't even be revoked, only 10 points granted out of 22 acceptable), but go to jail for the second offense.
That's weird to see jails full of "light" drunken drivers and cyclists, especially when thinking of the success of the "resocialization" process, all together with murderers, rapists, bank robbers in the same small cell .
Drunk drivers are a big plague in Poland with a lot of people killed every year because of them. Yearly there are also 2 or 3 accidents in which a drunk drivers kills 4-6 people in one go. Therefore severe punishments are needed to show that you shouldn't drive if you have drank, even when it's a little. The best is a zero-tolerance so that there is no discussion whether your two glasses of wine are still acceptable or not.
__________________

Urbanista1, panthiocodin liked this post
JanVL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #13463
Jakub Warszauer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Milanówek
Posts: 4,251
Likes (Received): 552

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
What are the reasonable times, in which Poland would be able to get the motorway to the border?
S8 no sooner than 2020+. S3 should be ready by 2022.
Jakub Warszauer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:29 AM   #13464
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakub Warszauer View Post
S8 no sooner than 2020+. S3 should be ready by 2022.
Indeed, I took that S8 for S3. Everything I said was meant about S3.

Any continuation of S8 on the Czech side is really a music of the far future. It would make to me a more sense to lead it from Mohelnice and Zábřeh. The I-44 road (Mohelnice, Zábřeh) is being updated to 2x2 anyway.

Last edited by Surel; December 12th, 2014 at 12:36 AM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #13465
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,523
Likes (Received): 19165

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Drunk drivers are a big plague in Poland with a lot of people killed every year because of them. Yearly there are also 2 or 3 accidents in which a drunk drivers kills 4-6 people in one go. Therefore severe punishments are needed to show that you shouldn't drive if you have drank, even when it's a little. The best is a zero-tolerance so that there is no discussion whether your two glasses of wine are still acceptable or not.
I agree on that.
However, I'm not sure if prosecuting cyclists after one or two beers is the best solution to that problem.
Somehow in Poland we go from one extreme to another. From ignoring the problem for years to sudden "war on drunk cyclists" recently.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 12:42 AM   #13466
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Drunk drivers are a big plague in Poland with a lot of people killed every year because of them. Yearly there are also 2 or 3 accidents in which a drunk drivers kills 4-6 people in one go. Therefore severe punishments are needed to show that you shouldn't drive if you have drank, even when it's a little. The best is a zero-tolerance so that there is no discussion whether your two glasses of wine are still acceptable or not.
Well, I don't agree with you, mostly for bike riders, they shouldn't be more than 4000 cyclists behind bars just for riding a bike over 0,05%.
Severe punishment is needed for reckless and very dangerous driving, which Poland is very lax at. If you had read my upper example, you would see that there is something terribly wrong in all this. Alcohol limit is very low in Poland at 0,02%; most European countries have it at 0,05%, an EU adaptation would be welcome.
The 0,05-0,08% issue is not a problem. Heavy drunked drivers are.
Furthermore, many Poles emigrated "en masse" to the Islands, were driver's alcohol limit is 0.08%, despite of that, they have one of the smallest traffic-related death rate in the world .
Last but not least, Polish jails are already overcrowded, and incarceration rate is 3,5 higher than in former Eastern Bloc country, Slovenia. They don't need even more unnecessarily inmates for an unproved cause.

Last edited by John Maynard; December 12th, 2014 at 12:59 AM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 01:30 AM   #13467
JanVL
Registered User
 
JanVL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Antwerpen/Poznań
Posts: 5,739
Likes (Received): 82113

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I agree on that.
However, I'm not sure if prosecuting cyclists after one or two beers is the best solution to that problem.
Somehow in Poland we go from one extreme to another. From ignoring the problem for years to sudden "war on drunk cyclists" recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Well, I don't agree with you, mostly for bike riders, they shouldn't be more than 4000 cyclists behind bars just for riding a bike over 0,05%.
I surely agree prosecuting drunk cyclists goes a little too far. That's why in October 2013 the President signed a new law which changes the qualification of drunk driving as a cyclist. From July 2015 cyclists won't be put behind bars anymore.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artyk...de-po-alkoholu

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Severe punishment is needed for reckless and very dangerous driving, which Poland is very lax at.
The question can be asked how much of that reckless driving is caused by alcohol.

At first, I'd like to note that this year after a big accident in which 5 people died because of a drunk driver on the 1st of January, the punishments for drunk drivers have been severed.

http://polska.newsweek.pl/pijani-kie...,278314,1.html

In 2013, about 3.300 people died in road traffic accidents and 43.500 were wounded. Out of this, 265 people were killed by drunken drivers and 2.726 were wounded. I suppose that 265 people's lives, which is 8% of all traffic deaths, are a clear sign that measures have to be taken.

In total 162.000 drunken drivers were stopped in 2013 (down from 171.000 in 2012).

http://prawo.money.pl/aktualnosci/wi...0,1452405.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
If you had read my upper example, you would see that there is something terribly wrong in all this.
I have. I agree that at least the driving license should be revoked too. In general, I argue Poland needs severe punishments to make it clear to drivers what the rules are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Alcohol limit is very low in Poland at 0,02%; most European countries have it at 0,05%, an EU adaptation would be welcome.
It could be useful. An other example is Belgium where the limit is slightly higher and the amount of drunk drivers is very high causing a lot of accidents too. Add to that the Belgian beers, and you find yourself in dangerous situations. A lower limit would be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The 0,05-0,08% issue is not a problem. Heavy drunked drivers are.
I reckon that it also depends from person to person how one reacts on alcohol. While some may not have any effects with one or two glasses and stay within the limit, others, not used to drinking, might. To evade any discussion and counting by drivers 'is that still allowed', a zero-tolerance is the most honest measure. One could introduce a zero-tolerance, but with following gradations based on the amount of per milles one has drank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Furthermore, many Poles emigrated "en masse" to the Islands, were driver's alcohol limit is 0.08%, despite of that, they have one of the smallest traffic-related death rate in the world .
There were 190 traffic deaths in Ireland in 2013, increased from 162 in 2012.

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Ou...n-Irish-roads/

Quote:
Almost one in three crash deaths in Ireland is alcohol-related. Even in small amounts, alcohol impairs driving ability – any amount of alcohol increases the risk of involvement in a fatal crash.

The link between alcohol use and road deaths is recognised internationally as being a cause of major concern. The European Commission estimates that at least a quarter of road deaths can be attributed to alcohol. The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates the role of alcohol in road deaths to be even greater.[i]

Too many crashes and deaths on our roads are alcohol-related and therefore avoidable.
- See more at: http://alcoholireland.ie/policy/poli....7ZmVRciF.dpuf

Quote:
A report (Anderson, et al, 2005) refers to the WHO Global Burden of Disease study which suggests that more than one in three road traffic fatalities in the EU are due to alcohol.

“How can it be acceptable that a driver in Ireland could be deemed safe to drive with four times the amount of alcohol in his system than a driver in other European countries? ”
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety...and---Part-2-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Last but not least, Polish jails are already overcrowded, and incarceration rate is 3,5 higher than in former Eastern Bloc country, Slovenia. They don't need even more unnecessarily inmates for an unproved cause.
Based on data from the 1st of June 2014, Poland had an incarceration rate of 210/100.000. It is still less than countries like Lithuania (322), Belarus (335), Ukraine (271), ... But of course, those are former USSR countries, if you'd separate them from the non-USSR Eastern-Bloc countries. Slovakia has 188 and the Czech Republic 163 while Hungary has 184. Slightly less, but not dramatically.

At least the cyclists won't have the problem anymore in a year time!
JanVL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 09:01 AM   #13468
Proterra
Korpus niedyplomatyczny
 
Proterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kowaniec
Posts: 148
Likes (Received): 229

I agree with both actually, "properly" drunk drivers need to be dealt with in a way that sends a signal that this is not acceptable. On the other hand, I don't think anything below 0,8‰ requires criminal prosecution, I'd rather like to see a sort of grading system where between 0,21‰ and 0,5‰ one gets a 100 PLN fine, between 0,51‰ and 0,8‰ one gets a 1000 PLN fine, and above 0,81‰ one gets a fine starting at 8100 PLN, increased by 100 PLN for every 0,01‰ higher than that, together with a licence suspension of at least a year for the first offence, and revocation for life if it's a second offence within 10 years of the first.

As for people in jail - I personally would like to see a system where "light" crimes, and crimes committed without malicious intent would be punished with a sort of community service, where someone would be required to work their free Saturday for a determined period of time, depending on the severity of what happened. If they're unemployed, let them work six days a week instead, and do this instead of a jail sentence. Simply because keeping people in jail costs money, and doesn't return anything except keeping bad people off the streets, while letting them pay taxes and work for free for society actually returns something to the society as a whole. If we'd just reserve the jails for the people that need to be kept off the streets, I'm sure it would benefit society and quite possibly lower the crime rate as well.
__________________

geogregor, mcarling liked this post
Proterra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #13469
Strzala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Wyślij sobie pocztowkę stamtąd
Posts: 11,048
Likes (Received): 8884

S17 Kurów - Lublin - Piaski aerial view:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazusik View Post
S17 Kurów - Piaski z lotu ptaka (GDDKiA)

w. Kurów Zach, widok w kier Lublina

w. Zach. Kurów, widok w kier Puław

Okolice Wólki Nowodworskiej

w. Kurów Wsch.

OUD Kurów

MOP Markuszów

w. Nałęczów

Okolice Garbowa, przecięcie z DW828

w. Jastków i DK12 widok w kier. płn.

Dolina Ciemięgi

Okolice Sieprawic

c.d.n.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazusik View Post
w. Lublin Sławinek

w. Lublin - widok w kier. wsch.

w. Lublin - widok na Lublin


Wiadukt nad obw. Lublina nad DW809



w. Lublin Czechów - widok w kier płn.


OUD Dysa


w. Lublin Rudnik - widok na Lublin



w. Lublin Rudnik - widok w kier. zach.


w. Lublin Rudnik - widok w kier. płn.

w. Lublin Tatry - widok na estakadę



w. Lublin Zadębie - widok na Świdnik



Okolice w. Lublin Zadębie



w. Lublin Felin


c.d.n.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazusik View Post
Wiadukt przy al. Lotników Polskich - widok na Świdnik


w. Świdnik


w. Świdnik - widok w kier. Lublina

Rejon przyszego MOP-u Wierzchowiska

Kładka dla pieszych

w. Piaski Zach.

w. Piaski Wsch.


Koniec
__________________
Czarne dziury się podają za polarne zorze.

Last edited by Strzala; December 12th, 2014 at 02:07 PM.
Strzala no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #13470
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,375
Likes (Received): 748

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Drunk drivers are a big plague in Poland with a lot of people killed every year because of them. Yearly there are also 2 or 3 accidents in which a drunk drivers kills 4-6 people in one go. Therefore severe punishments are needed to show that you shouldn't drive if you have drank, even when it's a little. The best is a zero-tolerance so that there is no discussion whether your two glasses of wine are still acceptable or not.
this is patently stupid however. What is the legitimacy of punishing people for doing something that is not harmful or wrong? (that is to say, with blood alcohol content that is below the level of apparent risk, ca. approx 120 mg/dl...) The people that are running over people are not wondering if they might be over the line, they are way beyond it and it's obvious to themselves as much as anyone... I mean to "send message", how can you have that in a free society? It is like in bad days when the government would go and shoot a few people in Mokotow to make "examples"...
__________________

mcarling, maciek2000 liked this post
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #13471
JanVL
Registered User
 
JanVL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Antwerpen/Poznań
Posts: 5,739
Likes (Received): 82113

Your latter comparison is quite exaggerated.

Mainly it is about avoiding discussion. In Belgium, with a higher tolerance level, many drivers get caught drunk after calculating if they can drink two glasses or maybe the third one will do no harm, but evidently does. With a zero-tolerance you can be sure: drank? Don't drive. Sober? Drive.

We're not talking about free speech, like you do in your strange comparison, but about a very prevalent social issue which doesn't only cause the fatal injuries of drunk drivers themselves and the destruction of their families's lives, but also the death of tens of innocent bystanders or drivers on a yearly bases. Every one of them is one too much. Thus a hard stance is very needed, especially in a country where alcoholism is widespread.
JanVL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 02:23 AM   #13472
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Some people have traces of alcohol in their system even if they don't drink any alcohol. Making them criminals does not serve any useful or legitimate purpose.
__________________

GROBIN liked this post
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 04:36 AM   #13473
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
I surely agree prosecuting drunk cyclists goes a little too far. That's why in October 2013 the President signed a new law which changes the qualification of drunk driving as a cyclist. From July 2015 cyclists won't be put behind bars anymore.
But, they still are putting cyclists after 1-2 beers behind bars. It’s a unique case in Europe .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
The question can be asked how much of that reckless driving is caused by alcohol.

At first, I'd like to note that this year after a big accident in which 5 people died because of a drunk driver on the 1st of January, the punishments for drunk drivers have been severed.

In 2013, about 3.300 people died in road traffic accidents and 43.500 were wounded. Out of this, 265 people were killed by drunken drivers and 2.726 were wounded. I suppose that 265 people's lives, which is 8% of all traffic deaths, are a clear sign that measures have to be taken.
The statistics said it, it’s about 8% alcohol-related deadly accidents. Yet, the good question to be asked is how many had more than 0,08% in these statistics?

The horrible accident that took place in new year’s eve, was not only caused by very high level of alcohol - driver had over 0,2% alcohol - but also by excessive speed, way over the speed limit. Probably in this case, if this drunken criminal, had drove at 40-50 km/h he may not have lost control of his vehicle, and/or the dynamic of speed wouldn’t be as devastating. High speed in urban environment on streets is even more dangerous than drunken drivers, especially for pedestrians. But unfortunately, nothing has changed for urban high speeders; only people with 1-2 beers are being even harder punished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
I have. I agree that at least the driving license should be revoked too. In general, I argue Poland needs severe punishments to make it clear to drivers what the rules are.
At least, do like the rest of Europe, instead of putting cyclists behind bars for nothing! As for procedures, Germany is quite fair in this (not excessive, nor lax), and could be taken IMHO as a good example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
It could be useful. An other example is Belgium where the limit is slightly higher and the amount of drunk drivers is very high causing a lot of accidents too. Add to that the Belgian beers, and you find yourself in dangerous situations. A lower limit would be better.
It’s 0,05% limit in Belgium. Actually, the number of deadly accidents is quite substantially decreasing, by -9,5% between 2012 and 2013 (BTW., it’s more than Poland!); so do the decreasing number of drivers controlled positive to the limit. It’s a good sign for road safety. I don’t think that if the limit was to be reduced, the drunken drivers causing these accidents would be evinced, they’ll just drive anyway (ment. hard drinkers).

http://statbel.fgov.be/fr/statistiqu...ict/accidents/

http://www.sudinfo.be/455316/article...0%99an-dernier

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
I reckon that it also depends from person to person how one reacts on alcohol. While some may not have any effects with one or two glasses and stay within the limit, others, not used to drinking, might. To evade any discussion and counting by drivers 'is that still allowed', a zero-tolerance is the most honest measure. One could introduce a zero-tolerance, but with following gradations based on the amount of per milles one has drank.
The 0,05%-0,08% amount has been proven to have minimal effect on the ability to drive. But, a 0% would certainly have more negative effects than these limits. As a matter of fact, Russia has 0% tolerance on alcohol, and yet, one of the biggest traffic-related death rate in the world.

Besides, there have always been people that are more sensitive than others to all kind of things, not only for alcohol, but also, per ex., for medics (even aspirine), drinking herbal tea (sleep), coffee (causing in some persons lots of aggressiveness), cigarettes, eating fat food, etc. that could seriously impair their ability to drive, and therefore, higher the risk of having serious accidents. Should we ban all of that?
More seriously, as an example, an old person has generally slower reaction and movement, lower perception and attention, statistically cause more accidents too. So, should we ban everyone over 60+ from driving a vehicle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
There were 190 traffic deaths in Ireland in 2013, increased from 162 in 2012.
Maybe, there is a negative trend right now, like “Botellón-style” heavy drinking just for fun?
Or, fast and reckless driving?

Anyway, the way as a driver is consider drunken differs significantly between Poland and Ireland, in the first one you are drunken just at 0,02%, in the second over 0,08%, Q.E.D.

It’s also useful to compare with the UK, which is a much bigger country with 10 times more population, and the same alcohol limit of 0,08%. Last year, they was a decrease in fatal accidents, and 6% less seriously injured people.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2013-01.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Based on data from the 1st of June 2014, Poland had an incarceration rate of 210/100.000. It is still less than countries like Lithuania (322), Belarus (335), Ukraine (271), ... But of course, those are former USSR countries, if you'd separate them from the non-USSR Eastern-Bloc countries. Slovakia has 188 and the Czech Republic 163 while Hungary has 184. Slightly less, but not dramatically.
And, all former Eastern Bloc countries (excl. former Yugoslavia), including these in EU, has an incarceration rate 2 to 10 times higher than Western European nations...

Last edited by John Maynard; December 13th, 2014 at 04:45 AM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #13474
michau88
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 193
Likes (Received): 50

Ministry of the Interior published stats for November 2014.

Number of accidents

Nov 2013: 3 068
Nov 2014: 2 458

January 2013 - November 2013: 32 664
January 2014 - November 2014: 31 444
3,7% reduction

Killed
Nov 2013: 306
Nov 2014: 257

Jan 2013 - Nov 2013: 3 055
Jan 2014 - Nov 2014: 2 857

Dropped by 6.5%

Number of drivers caught under influcence:
Jan 2013 - Nov 2014 154 418
Jan 2014 - Nov 2014 131 903

Dropped by 14,5%

There is an improvement, which is good, but still it's a very small reduction of accidents/killed. The fines should be definitely higher than they are at the moment, so that Poles would drive more carefully.
__________________
On s'est connu le temps de plaire
Aux exigences qu'on s'est créées mais on s'y perd

JanVL, CMichu, Urbanista1 liked this post
michau88 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 02:03 PM   #13475
aswnl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: near Amsterdam (NL)
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 84

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I agree on that.
However, I'm not sure if prosecuting cyclists after one or two beers is the best solution to that problem.
Somehow in Poland we go from one extreme to another. From ignoring the problem for years to sudden "war on drunk cyclists" recently.
Extreme ? I would rather have such an approach in NL.

BTW: Poland is really improving it's road network in a way I could only have dreamt of a decade ago. Keep on improving !
aswnl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 03:06 PM   #13476
RipleyLV
Registered User
 
RipleyLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Jelgava
Posts: 4,647
Likes (Received): 2278

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but preparation works started on S8 segment from Zambrów to Mężenin. Tree cutting is in progress.
__________________
NORDIC & BALTIC FORUMJELGAVA PROJECTS THREAD

Rombi liked this post
RipleyLV no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #13477
JanVL
Registered User
 
JanVL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Antwerpen/Poznań
Posts: 5,739
Likes (Received): 82113

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
But, they still are putting cyclists after 1-2 beers behind bars. It’s a unique case in Europe .
But soon they won't be anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The statistics said it, it’s about 8% alcohol-related deadly accidents. Yet, the good question to be asked is how many had more than 0,08% in these statistics?
That is indeed a fair question. I can't find that specific data immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The horrible accident that took place in new year’s eve, was not only caused by very high level of alcohol - driver had over 0,2% alcohol - but also by excessive speed, way over the speed limit. Probably in this case, if this drunken criminal, had drove at 40-50 km/h he may not have lost control of his vehicle, and/or the dynamic of speed wouldn’t be as devastating. High speed in urban environment on streets is even more dangerous than drunken drivers, especially for pedestrians. But unfortunately, nothing has changed for urban high speeders; only people with 1-2 beers are being even harder punished.
The question can be posed if his excessive speed was caused by his drunken state as well.

Nevertheless I completely agree with you that high speed driving should be punished harshly with a license revoked immediately above a particular level.

But it is biased thinking to focus only on high-speed driving, while there are other causes of accidents as well. A good policy is one that focuses on each and every reason why accidents happen: the quality of the roads, the speed people chose to drive, intoxication, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
At least, do like the rest of Europe, instead of putting cyclists behind bars for nothing! As for procedures, Germany is quite fair in this (not excessive, nor lax), and could be taken IMHO as a good example.
You can stop using the cycling example already. I've got it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
It’s 0,05% limit in Belgium. Actually, the number of deadly accidents is quite substantially decreasing, by -9,5% between 2012 and 2013 (BTW., it’s more than Poland!); so do the decreasing number of drivers controlled positive to the limit. It’s a good sign for road safety. I don’t think that if the limit was to be reduced, the drunken drivers causing these accidents would be evinced, they’ll just drive anyway (ment. hard drinkers).

http://statbel.fgov.be/fr/statistiqu...ict/accidents/

http://www.sudinfo.be/455316/article...0%99an-dernier
It is good they are decreasing, but they remain among the highest of Western-Europe. Though to be fair the bad infrastructure, or less good than in the neighbouring countries, as well as the reckless manner of driving, are surely a bigger impact.

Based on the number of fatalities/100.000 inhabitants:

- Poland: 10.9
- Belgium: 7.2
- France: 4.9
- Germany: 4.3
- Netherlands: 3.9
- UK: 3.5

Though there are also numbers of the people subjected to alcohol tests after an accident with wounded people:

- Flanders: 23.801 checked - 6% drunken
- Wallonia: 9.898 checked - 16.3% drunken
- Brussels: 4.957 checked - 59% drunken

http://www.carguide.be/guide-auto-au...an-vlaanderen/

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The 0,05%-0,08% amount has been proven to have minimal effect on the ability to drive. But, a 0% would certainly have more negative effects than these limits. As a matter of fact, Russia has 0% tolerance on alcohol, and yet, one of the biggest traffic-related death rate in the world.
Russia has gone up to 0.0356% since 1 September 2013. I suppose it is too early to see the impact of that decision.

In Europe, zero tolerance is in the Czech Republic, Germany (for the first 2 years) (Good measure!), Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia (first 3 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_d...law_by_country

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Besides, there have always been people that are more sensitive than others to all kind of things, not only for alcohol, but also, per ex., for medics (even aspirine), drinking herbal tea (sleep), coffee (causing in some persons lots of aggressiveness), cigarettes, eating fat food, etc. that could seriously impair their ability to drive, and therefore, higher the risk of having serious accidents. Should we ban all of that?
More seriously, as an example, an old person has generally slower reaction and movement, lower perception and attention, statistically cause more accidents too. So, should we ban everyone over 60+ from driving a vehicle?
No, we shouldn't. Just as we shouldn't in most of the other examples you have listed. Nevertheless I think we both agree that alcohol is far more dangerous than any of these and is quite more widely present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Maybe, there is a negative trend right now, like “Botellón-style” heavy drinking just for fun?
Or, fast and reckless driving?


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Anyway, the way as a driver is consider drunken differs significantly between Poland and Ireland, in the first one you are drunken just at 0,02%, in the second over 0,08%, Q.E.D.
And yet, if the source was good, 1 in 3 accidents in Ireland could have been alcohol-related. Is that acceptable for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
It’s also useful to compare with the UK, which is a much bigger country with 10 times more population, and the same alcohol limit of 0,08%. Last year, they was a decrease in fatal accidents, and 6% less seriously injured people.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2013-01.pdf
This is a very interesting report, though dates from 2011:

Quote:
Figure 8 shows that there were an estimated 260 fatal drink-drive accidents in 2011, from which 280 people died, representing 15% of all road fatalities. It marks a rise on the previous year – an additional 30 deaths occurred compared to 2010 – the first increase in deaths since 2006. The proportion of drink-drive road accidents in relation to total road accidents has remained constant between 2000 and 2011 (14% – 18%).
http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/Fa...May%202013.pdf

You will also find that, which is not surprising, the number of drunk drivers is higher between 20-30 years.

Would a zero-tolerance based on age be acceptable for you, like one does in Germany?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
And, all former Eastern Bloc countries (excl. former Yugoslavia), including these in EU, has an incarceration rate 2 to 10 times higher than Western European nations...
Though I'm sure this has more to do with the system and effectiveness. In countries like Belgium, where I study law, one does a lot to give alternative punishments or none if prisons, like now, are full. In CEE one gives more punishments and also the law enforcement is more effective.

Incarceration rate solely doesn't give a lot of information, aside from a supposed higher or lower punishment. There are a lot of other factors that are more important, like police effectiveness, ways of punishment, ...

In 2011, for example, in Poland there were 1.1 million criminal offences, out of which in 68.7% someone was punished. In the Netherlands, out of 1.2 million offences that were investigated, nearly 24% were solved.

http://www.nrc.nl/rechtenbestuur/201...e-van-ijsberg/

http://www.statystyka.policja.pl/st/...1999-2013.html
JanVL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2014, 06:30 AM   #13478
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Edit

Last edited by John Maynard; December 15th, 2014 at 06:37 AM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2014, 06:38 AM   #13479
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
But soon they won't be anymore.
Yes, and under European pressure to stop this stupidity. Though, that's pity that the law didn’t came into effect immediately.
Also, an interesting fact, is that more than 200’000 persons were put in prison for this very reason between the introduction of this law in 2000 and 2012, making a yearly average of more than 16’700 inmates. Some were convicted for years in jail...
Moreover, It should be noted, that some drunken cyclists were even pursued by Poland with a European Arrest Warrant, and put into extradition process

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19534397

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-8426095.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
The question can be posed if his excessive speed was caused by his drunken state as well.

Nevertheless I completely agree with you that high speed driving should be punished harshly with a license revoked immediately above a particular level.

But it is biased thinking to focus only on high-speed driving, while there are other causes of accidents as well. A good policy is one that focuses on each and every reason why accidents happen: the quality of the roads, the speed people chose to drive, intoxication, ...
Nevertheless, drunken driving is not the main problem in Polish road fatalities. Inappropriate speed and reckless driving are. Out of these 8% drunk drivers fatal accidents, maybe (I am supposing, as there are no stats) the majority is severely drunk? It’s certainly an important problem that must be fought, but not in this singular way as it is today. Anyway, that rate is low compared to some other EU countries. That could mean either:

1) Polish drivers are disciplined when it comes to alcohol, but not towards other traffic violations.
2)I’ve seen people going out of bars, driving drunken at 30-40 km/h, even in rural areas. Lesser speed while intoxicated may reduce the risk of having a fatal crash, and therefore, lower the statistics.

In any of these cases, there is a good public awareness of driving under alcohol influence. Quite contrasting with the stereotypes about the country .

IMHO, it’s wrong priority what your government is focalising right now, with disproportionate measure for the “light” one. And let's say it as it is, almost completely ignoring the other much more important factors.
Does many people know that Poland account one fifth of all pedestrian fatalities in EU, despite having only 7,5% of the population? Surely not, because the politics and media won't say it loudly, they focus exaggeratedly on minor causes only, so you won’t see any actions like these alcohol checkpoints near zebras or schools.

https://translate.googleusercontent....RPLLNl8D-Nqn3g

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
You can stop using the cycling example already. I've got it .
NO, I can't, it's too shocking .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
It is good they are decreasing, but they remain among the highest of Western-Europe. Though to be fair the bad infrastructure, or less good than in the neighbouring countries, as well as the reckless manner of driving, are surely a bigger impact.

Based on the number of fatalities/100.000 inhabitants:

- Poland: 10.9
- Belgium: 7.2
- France: 4.9
- Germany: 4.3
- Netherlands: 3.9
- UK: 3.5

Though there are also numbers of the people subjected to alcohol tests after an accident with wounded people:

- Flanders: 23.801 checked - 6% drunken
- Wallonia: 9.898 checked - 16.3% drunken
- Brussels: 4.957 checked - 59% drunken

http://www.carguide.be/guide-auto-au...an-vlaanderen/
1) The UK are doing very well! It should be an example for Poland !

2) Bloody Brusselians, always confusing beer with water .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
No, we shouldn't. Just as we shouldn't in most of the other examples you have listed. Nevertheless I think we both agree that alcohol is far more dangerous than any of these and is quite more widely present.
No, we don't, as I don’t see how a person after 1-2 beer, can be more dangerous than after taking somniferous, or other impairing medics; and all the list though if sensitive…
The problem is however different with large quantities of alcohol (drunk state), and I may agree with you in this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
And yet, if the source was good, 1 in 3 accidents in Ireland could have been alcohol-related. Is that acceptable for you?
Off course not, and that returns to my question. Furthermore, there is surely fewer public awareness of the dangers being drunk while driving. Surely, more education is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
This is a very interesting report, though dates from 2011:
http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/Fa...May%202013.pdf
Quote:
Figure 8 shows that there were an estimated 260 fatal drink-drive accidents in 2011, from which 280 people died, representing 15% of all road fatalities. It marks a rise on the previous year – an additional 30 deaths occurred compared to 2010 – the first increase in deaths since 2006. The proportion of drink-drive road accidents in relation to total road accidents has remained constant between 2000 and 2011 (14% – 18%).

You will also find that, which is not surprising, the number of drunk drivers is higher between 20-30 years.

Would a zero-tolerance based on age be acceptable for you, like one does in Germany?
1)Your comparison from a selected year, is quite useless. The general trend for a longer period of time is a good indicator:


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...ents-a-001.jpg
As you can see, there are some years were it increase a bit, the mid 1990’s-mid 2000’s being flat (your case), but the general trend is falling. This in spite of the limit of 0,08% remained untouched.

2) Not only the number of drunk drivers is higher, but the number of accidents in general is usually higher, too.

3) Maybe not 0%, as there can always be residual alcohol in the blood in some persons, such after drinking a juice. A 0,02% limit would be more wiser for the first year or two, and under 21.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Though I'm sure this has more to do with the system and effectiveness. In countries like Belgium, where I study law, one does a lot to give alternative punishments or none if prisons, like now, are full. In CEE one gives more punishments and also the law enforcement is more effective.

Incarceration rate solely doesn't give a lot of information, aside from a supposed higher or lower punishment. There are a lot of other factors that are more important, like police effectiveness, ways of punishment, ...

In 2011, for example, in Poland there were 1.1 million criminal offences, out of which in 68.7% someone was punished. In the Netherlands, out of 1.2 million offences that were investigated, nearly 24% were solved.

http://www.nrc.nl/rechtenbestuur/201...e-van-ijsberg/

http://www.statystyka.policja.pl/st/...1999-2013.html
By the way, that doesn’t mean that Polish police is more efficient. First, the definition in what is or isn't a "criminal offense” vary sorely between Poland and the Netherlands. In Poland it’s criminal offense, per ex., to drink in public or in a camping, to smoke a joint, (again!) to drive a bike after 1-2 beers, while in the NL none of this is. So now you have these large "criminal offense” behavior created, that can be considered as “supply" for police, filled with the political-judicial “demand” . Second, Polish police knows it and uses these widespread “tiny fishes” to improve their statistics, granting on the way their officers with promotions and bonuses, seeking rewards and good rankings in the rat race between police departments, mainly from catching these easy and unharmful "felons". Did you now, that in some cases, per ex., a guy caught with 200 pirated CD, the police made each case (here, each CD) individual with 100% solved success ?
It's also estimated that 3 out of 4 crimes goes unreported in Poland, probably because of general lack of trust in the police, often seen as a “corrupt institution”.

Above all, Poland put people to jail for a reason or another (often not justified, like above), has 3 times the incarceration rate of neighboring Germany, and shall seriously think how to solve this problem, because in 2016 she will have to incarcerate Polish nationals condemned abroad in the EU, and there is many of them (per ex., UK's first foreign prison population). So, it's either build tens of thousands additional places like in Russia/USA, or reduce the incarceration rate by putting real criminals instead.

http://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolit...lne-cudow.read

http://wyborcza.pl/1,76842,10744110,...tepczosci.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-29666951

Last edited by John Maynard; December 15th, 2014 at 06:43 AM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2014, 06:56 AM   #13480
Goy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 174
Likes (Received): 156

Are there motorways in these tracks:

Berlin - Gdansk?
Warsaw - Brest(BY)?
Warsaw - Lviv(ukaine)?
Gdansk - Wroclaw?
Goy no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autostrady, expressways, highway, motorways, polish motorways, polish roads, polskie drogi, road

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium