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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #13481
mcarling
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Originally Posted by Goy View Post
Are there motorways in these tracks:

Berlin - Gdansk?
Warsaw - Brest(BY)?
Warsaw - Lviv(ukaine)?
Gdansk - Wroclaw?
No, not yet. Berlin - Lodz - Gdansk is possible by motorway, but it would be much faster to go directly on lesser roads. Gdansk - Lodz - Wroclaw is mostly by motorway and expressway, except going through Lodz.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #13482
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This normally wouldn't deserve to be a news but taking into consideration what is going on with noise barriers construction in Poland it is a news worth mentioning.
Administration of city of Warsaw has declared that noise barriers put by one of private developers along United States Avenue (al. Stanow Zjednoczonych) in Warsaw are illegal and are set to be REMOVED. It is probably the first such a case in Poland. Whole story here:
http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1...html#LokWawTxt

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Old December 15th, 2014, 07:04 PM   #13483
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New bridge over Wisła (Vistula) river in Połaniec - connection between Świętokrzyskie and Podkarpackie voivodeships (opened for traffic in 12th November 2014):

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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:36 PM   #13484
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Yes, and under European pressure to stop this stupidity. Though, that's pity that the law didn’t came into effect immediately.[/QUOTE]

All laws need a certain time frame to be implemented. Otherwise the legal certainty is affected.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Also, an interesting fact, is that more than 200’000 persons were put in prison for this very reason between the introduction of this law in 2000 and 2012, making a yearly average of more than 16’700 inmates. Some were convicted for years in jail...
Though those will probably have been short sentences.

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Moreover, It should be noted, that some drunken cyclists were even pursued by Poland with a European Arrest Warrant, and put into extradition process
No the whole story. The same man was also convicted for drunk driving with a car.

http://londynek.net/wiadomosci/article?jdnews_id=15654


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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Nevertheless, drunken driving is not the main problem in Polish road fatalities. Inappropriate speed and reckless driving are. Out of these 8% drunk drivers fatal accidents, maybe (I am supposing, as there are no stats) the majority is severely drunk? It’s certainly an important problem that must be fought, but not in this singular way as it is today.
I can't find any specified data unfortunately. But as you say it remains a problem and saving hundreds of people's life is a good goal. And we're not only talking about the dead: there are thousands of wounded too, of which many can be handicapped for life. In some ways, that can be worse than an immediate death.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Anyway, that rate is low compared to some other EU countries. That could mean either:

1) Polish drivers are disciplined when it comes to alcohol, but not towards other traffic violations.
No and yes.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
2)I’ve seen people going out of bars, driving drunken at 30-40 km/h, even in rural areas. Lesser speed while intoxicated may reduce the risk of having a fatal crash, and therefore, lower the statistics.
It does, but remains dangerous.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
In any of these cases, there is a good public awareness of driving under alcohol influence. Quite contrasting with the stereotypes about the country .
But the mere fact of driving drunk is an offence nevertheless and can't be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
IMHO, it’s wrong priority what your government is focalising right now, with disproportionate measure for the “light” one. And let's say it as it is, almost completely ignoring the other much more important factors.
The government had to increase measures after a couple of fatal crashes which killed several bystanders at once. I'm not familiar with the other measures taken recently on other domains. But alcohol remains one of the big problems of the Polish society, not only for driving.

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Does many people know that Poland account one fifth of all pedestrian fatalities in EU, despite having only 7,5% of the population? Surely not, because the politics and media won't say it loudly, they focus exaggeratedly on minor causes only, so you won’t see any actions like these alcohol checkpoints near zebras or schools.
I for sure agree that crossing a street is dangerous in many places due to the lack of the common 'knowledge' to stop for pedestrians. I learned to drive in Belgium and therefore always do that.


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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
1) The UK are doing very well! It should be an example for Poland !
I agree. I always feel safe in the UK, despite that one drives on the wrong side of the road .

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
No, we don't, as I don’t see how a person after 1-2 beer, can be more dangerous than after taking somniferous, or other impairing medics; and all the list though if sensitive…
The problem is however different with large quantities of alcohol (drunk state), and I may agree with you in this one.
And it's the latter I mean indeed.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
By the way, (...)
I can only add my personal feeling which is that I'd wish to have Polish police in Belgium, since the latter fails to act in a good or effective way. Generally, one feels much safer in Poland.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:41 PM   #13485
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All laws need a certain time frame to be implemented. Otherwise the legal certainty is affected.
Generally yes, but that's not applicable when repealing bad criminal law. The repeal of the law providing long jail sentences for bicycling while drunk should have been repealed with immediate effect.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #13486
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I can only add my personal feeling which is that I'd wish to have Polish police in Belgium, since the latter fails to act in a good or effective way. Generally, one feels much safer in Poland.
So when are you moving to Poland, JanPL? Hopefully before you get murdered here...
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Old December 15th, 2014, 09:34 PM   #13487
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So when are you moving to Poland, JanPL? Hopefully before you get murdered here...
I'll see. I was more pointing at riots we had in Brussels many time etc to make it clear. Anyway, that's an off-topic here.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #13488
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Originally Posted by Goy View Post
Are there motorways in these tracks:

Berlin - Gdansk?
Warsaw - Brest(BY)?
Warsaw - Lviv(ukaine)?
Gdansk - Wroclaw?
On the first page you have map of Poland. Are you so lazy that you can do even that?
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #13489
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This normally wouldn't deserve to be a news but taking into consideration what is going on with noise barriers construction in Poland it is a news worth mentioning.
Administration of city of Warsaw has declared that noise barriers put by one of private developers along United States Avenue (al. Stanow Zjednoczonych) in Warsaw are illegal and are set to be REMOVED. It is probably the first such a case in Poland. Whole story here:
http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1...html#LokWawTxt

hehe there comes a point wherein the noise barrier fetish goes too far
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Old December 16th, 2014, 12:21 PM   #13490
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del

Last edited by Rusonaldo; December 16th, 2014 at 04:01 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:19 PM   #13491
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Wow, great news. Thank u
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Old December 16th, 2014, 05:48 PM   #13492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
This normally wouldn't deserve to be a news but taking into consideration what is going on with noise barriers construction in Poland it is a news worth mentioning.
Administration of city of Warsaw has declared that noise barriers put by one of private developers along United States Avenue (al. Stanow Zjednoczonych) in Warsaw are illegal and are set to be REMOVED. It is probably the first such a case in Poland. Whole story here:
http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1...html#LokWawTxt

What a distorted logic ! They will remove noise barriers where they are really needed (or they will not add them - like on the Southern Suwałki bypass between DK8 and S61), but they keep constructing sound barriers in the middle of nowhere ...

Or maybe they want to build some new ones - so a friend of a friend's company earns a bit ?

They state clearly that the sound barriers in this place were supposed to be built, but instead of coming from the city's budget it was made from a developper's money ...
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"Richtgeschwindigkeit" should be the default system in all EU motorways & expressways & lane indiscipline should be harshly fought! Down with radars on motorways!

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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #13493
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They will remove noise barriers where they are really needed
Really, that ugly barriers are needed to be put there, in the middle of sidewalk? It looks like random object in random place

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Originally Posted by GROBIN View Post
They state clearly that the sound barriers in this place were supposed to be built, but instead of coming from the city's budget it was made from a developer's money ...
It clearly was said that developer put these barriers in order to build bigger and closer to road buildings. Just because developer payed for them does it mean now everyone can build noise barriers according to their own needs? We have enough urban chaos in our cities in Poland. On the top of that we have new law that lets people to build houses without any construction permit like it use to be. This is a recipe for disaster in this already big disorder.
And yes, there is a lot of these noise barriers that needs to be removed, lowered or moved to other places. This is a good start. IMHO
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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #13494
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Though those will probably have been short sentences.
Nevertheless, some sentences were longer, probably recurrences of being “drunk" (over 1-2 beer) while pedaling.

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
No the whole story. The same man was also convicted for drunk driving with a car.

http://londynek.net/wiadomosci/article?jdnews_id=15654
Well, it wasn’t written in The Independent’s article. Yet, we don’t know how much alcohol he had while driving, this information isn’t provided. He might technically have as well only 0,02% or just above. He hasn’t cause any accident either. While in Britain, he might even not having been upset for that...

Anyway, it’s a 7 years old offense, since he has recovered from his alcohol related problems, and in my opinion, it’s extremely resources consuming and taxpayer’s money wasting to pursue such people abroad with a European Arrest Warrant and extraditions processes for such petty offenses; especially, when the emitting country is not paying anything in the process. Not only that, but according to the news, the man is struggling to get a living for his family. Though, the question is: Does the Polish legal system have nothing better to do than to chase “poor” people across its borders to put them in already full prisons for minor offenses?

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
I can't find any specified data unfortunately. But as you say it remains a problem and saving hundreds of people's life is a good goal. And we're not only talking about the dead: there are thousands of wounded too, of which many can be handicapped for life. In some ways, that can be worse than an immediate death.
Here are the statistics for drunken driving in Poland (for 2013):
  • 2101 accidents involving a drunken driver
  • Out of which, more than 1400 accidents were caused by inappropriate speed.
  • 265 persons were killed.
  • 2727 person were wounded.
  • Majority of offenders are 25-39 years old.
Meanwhile during that same period of time there was:
  • 35 385 road accidents
  • 3300 fatalities
  • 43 500 wounded
In total, Drunken drivers caused 7,4% of road accidents in 2013.
Drunken drivers caused 8% road fatalities in 2013.
Drunken drivers accounted for 6,2% of road injuries in 2013.

But, as I already wrote, we don’t know how drunken these drivers were, was it 1-2 beer, or much more?

However, the absolute priority from the police is to fight drunken drivers, and a minimum of 10% of police effectives is used exclusively for this purpose. This number is going to increase in the next months.

The total share in accidents is, however, small. In 92% of fatal accident and 94% of injuries, alcohol is not to blame:


Causes of accidents for 2013.

Unsurprisingly, "inappropriate speed" is the first factor of accidents.
In second and third position, come “does not give priority" and “improper behavior towards pedestrians”.

Last year, there was 1 140 pedestrians killed, and 8 802 were injured, which mean they are victims of 1/3 of all fatal accidents, and 1/5 of total injured.

> You have 430% more chance of being killed as a pedestrian than by a drunken driver.

http://www.tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-kra...ow,384337.html

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No and yes.
Yet, you will never attain a 0% level in any road accident causes….

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
It does, but remains dangerous.
Yes, but it is much less than, per ex., inappropriate speed in itself.

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
But the mere fact of driving drunk is an offence nevertheless and can't be tolerated.
High speed in built-up area, is also an offense, but punishment is very different. Though, it causes a lot more fatal accidents and injuries, as you are particularly concerned by the last one.

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
The government had to increase measures after a couple of fatal crashes which killed several bystanders at once. I'm not familiar with the other measures taken recently on other domains. But alcohol remains one of the big problems of the Polish society, not only for driving.
In fact, it isn’t such a big problem. It’s just the main issues are not being taken seriously right now.

I think, that Poland has found it “scapegoat” with this "drunken drivers plague”, which is IMHO pure propaganda to divert public attention from fighting much more serious occurrences - as it might be unpopular for the government, as well.

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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
I for sure agree that crossing a street is dangerous in many places due to the lack of the common 'knowledge' to stop for pedestrians. I learned to drive in Belgium and therefore always do that.
Hoping, that this concern would be taken more seriously.

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And it's the latter I mean indeed.
Therefore, an "EU adaptation" to 0,05% would be welcome .
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #13495
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Really, that ugly barriers are needed to be put there, in the middle of sidewalk? It looks like random object in random place


It clearly was said that developer put these barriers in order to build bigger and closer to road buildings. Just because developer payed for them does it mean now everyone can build noise barriers according to their own needs? We have enough urban chaos in our cities in Poland. On the top of that we have new law that lets people to build houses without any construction permit like it use to be. This is a recipe for disaster in this already big disorder.
And yes, there is a lot of these noise barriers that needs to be removed, lowered or moved to other places. This is a good start. IMHO
You're discussing about the esthetic part, but this is a matter of tastes - just as with the numerous ads on ugly not-renovated commieblocks. Like we say in French, "les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas" (tastes & colors are not to be discussed - meaning "do not argue about it)
I am discussing about the practical part. Whatever life you want (in the middle of a park or in the middle of an urban jungle), I don't think you'd like to live in such noise and neither would the inhabitants of these buildings, which is also why they built that. And in this case the sidewalk is big enough.
I can see from here when those inhabitants will ask the city of Warsaw for compensation. Bravo, bravissimo ...

And on the discussion between JanVL and John Maynard: yes, harsh alcohol laws are needed, but 0,2g/L like it is in Poland or Norway or 0,0g/L like in the Czech Republic for instance are a nonsense ... 0,5g/L is O.K., because unless you drink without eating the effect of one beer or one glass of wine is low. That's MHO
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"Richtgeschwindigkeit" should be the default system in all EU motorways & expressways & lane indiscipline should be harshly fought! Down with radars on motorways!
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:38 PM   #13496
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And on the discussion between JanVL and John Maynard: yes, harsh alcohol laws are needed, but 0,2g/L like it is in Poland or Norway or 0,0g/L like in the Czech Republic for instance are a nonsense ... 0,5g/L is O.K., because unless you drink without eating the effect of one beer or one glass of wine is low. That's MHO
I think that 0 tolerance is ok. But I also think that the authorities should make something cool out of driving without drinking. That means, don't use only a deterrence, but also support it in a positive way, make it "cool" for the young generation. They will keep their habits and they are also the biggest risk group.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:39 PM   #13497
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Just to add to our noise barriers discussion. New disaster is coming. New improved and widened DW 631 at the outskirts of Warszawa is about to be finished. Just look at satellite image where it is:
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Na Google Earth fajnie widać cały remontowany odcinek



Zdjęcia z 4 października 2014
ale można już porównać rozmiary przyszłego ronda z poprzednim.
Now expect this:
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c.d.






c.d.n.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:21 PM   #13498
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You're discussing about the esthetic part
Esthetic - yes but also it is about law and regulations. There is no way everyone can build on public lands not approved barriers. We have the same problem with tens of thousand ugly commercial displays put without any permit along streets and roads in Poland. Also, you need to ask people if they prefer to live with noise or with a view of 5 meter high wall in the front of their window. I am simply used to that kind of noise. I have been living my whole life with street noise not only from cars but also from trams and even low flying planes from time to time... But of course not everyone is the same... so maybe is better to live in suburbs. Noise barriers fit there much better along motorways.

Last edited by rakcancer; December 17th, 2014 at 07:40 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:19 PM   #13499
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Just to add to our noise barriers discussion. New disaster is coming. New improved and widened DW 631 at the outskirts of Warszawa is about to be finished. Just look at satellite image where it is:
And you can clearly see that the built-up area of Ząbki is very close to the road.
So why putting noise barriers here deserves a ""?
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:35 PM   #13500
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Which area, the one on the bottom of image separated by about 40-50 meters of forest? You can see clearly from pictures they are trees behind these barriers , besides I know this road. Drove there many times... There are maybe some single houses a bit closer to the road but it doesn't justifies these huge barriers. It is a shame, again....
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