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Old December 31st, 2014, 09:21 PM   #13581
Kanadzie
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but allowing police to seize things bypasses judicial oversight, what happens when the police are wrong?
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Old December 31st, 2014, 10:06 PM   #13582
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
but allowing police to seize things bypasses judicial oversight, what happens when the police are wrong?
Simple - require video review by a senior police officer within 24 hours. If the offence must be captured on video, it's highly unlikely that the police will get it wrong. I'd also implement instant courts - if someone wants to have judicial oversight, then they can go with the evidence to a 24 hour court set up to deal with these cases, but with the provision that the judge may impose a lengthier suspension of up to 3 months. Simple, effective and straight to the point - rather than the current mess where people accused of driving like idiots (and killing people in the process) often are free to drive around for years after the offence.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 10:31 PM   #13583
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So in essence, what you suggest is a police state

You can't have a judge imposing longer sentences on the same evidence, there is something really wrong with that (like Magna Carta issues)

Video is not always useful... example a while ago in Canada where such laws are in place, a driver was caught at 91 km/h in 50 zone at his great surprise. The officer had recording of the speed, 91 km/h measured at distance approx 1 300 metre (handheld laser).

However in reality, the position of the officer was approx 250 m behind the "zone 50" sign, so at a distance of 1300 m, the driver was still in the zone 90 (!) (curiously the speed limits on this road type are identical to Polish)

The driver had his car seized and impounded for 3 weeks and license suspended for same time, at his expense, as well as speeding ticket (expensive, approx 800 dollars). In court, the ticket was cancelled, but what about the costs of towing, impoundment storage, taxis and etc when license was gone? He had no compensation. What would a video have shown, a car approaching, speed 91, so "guilty".

Giving so much power to police is putting in place a huge risk to grind up the lives of innocent people and this is fundamentally wrong and incompatible with having a free society... I don't see issue with some slight delays of justice system, perhaps there are efficiencies to be found in the bureaucracy. But consider this - someone who murders another with a firearm, will the police hang him on sight? Of course not...
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Last edited by Kanadzie; December 31st, 2014 at 10:38 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 11:03 PM   #13584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Simple - require video review by a senior police officer within 24 hours. If the offence must be captured on video, it's highly unlikely that the police will get it wrong. I'd also implement instant courts - if someone wants to have judicial oversight, then they can go with the evidence to a 24 hour court set up to deal with these cases, but with the provision that the judge may impose a lengthier suspension of up to 3 months. Simple, effective and straight to the point - rather than the current mess where people accused of driving like idiots (and killing people in the process) often are free to drive around for years after the offence.
... so the accused have no time to hire a lawyer and prepare a defense. Kanadzie is correct. What you propose is a police state.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 01:10 AM   #13585
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... so the accused have no time to hire a lawyer and prepare a defense. Kanadzie is correct. What you propose is a police state.
I imagine under such a regime, lawyers would be on-call to defend such clients. However, with a requirement for video collaboration, I imagine most people would rather just take the 2 weeks and get it over with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie"
You can't have a judge imposing longer sentences on the same evidence, there is something really wrong with that (like Magna Carta issues)
Magna Carta is irrelevant here, but anyway, it's commonplace in Europe. If you're a foreigner in France (for instance), the "on-the-spot" fine is actually a deposit towards the fine in the court. It just so happens that (conveniently) - foreigners tend to get fined the same amount as the fine collected at the side of the road. I remember several cases in the Basque Country where foreign truck drivers received hideously huge fines (3-4000 Euro was common!) and given the option of either having their day in court or simply getting on with it. If they did try and have their day in court, they had little chance.

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Giving so much power to police is putting in place a huge risk to grind up the lives of innocent people and this is fundamentally wrong and incompatible with having a free society... I don't see issue with some slight delays of justice system, perhaps there are efficiencies to be found in the bureaucracy.
Unfortunately, we're not talking about slight delays, but rather a system that's seen people walk free after clearly committing dreadful offences behind the wheel. At the end of the day, driving is a privilege, not a right.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 01:36 AM   #13586
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I imagine under such a regime, lawyers would be on-call to defend such clients.
A lawyer cannot prepare a defense in 24 hours. No justice is possible in the system you describe.

Now can we please return to discussing infrastructure?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 04:19 AM   #13587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
A lawyer cannot prepare a defense in 24 hours. No justice is possible in the system you describe.

Now can we please return to discussing infrastructure?
It's a moot point, but foreigners in many EU countries often have far less time to make such a decision. I've heard a story first-hand where a member of the Guardia Civil made it clear that either 6000 Euro could be paid (as a "deposit") there and then, or the truck would be kept in place until the trial. When the driver asked when the trial would be, the answer was "As you say in England, how long is a piece of string?". Going back to infrastructure, can anyone explain the sheer stupidity of the Wroclaw-Stadion exit on the A8?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 01:04 PM   #13588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
It's a moot point, but foreigners in many EU countries often have far less time to make such a decision. I've heard a story first-hand where a member of the Guardia Civil made it clear that either 6000 Euro could be paid (as a "deposit") there and then, or the truck would be kept in place until the trial. When the driver asked when the trial would be, the answer was "As you say in England, how long is a piece of string?".
And in your opinion this is the system we should aim for?

Quote:
Going back to infrastructure, can anyone explain the sheer stupidity of the Wroclaw-Stadion exit on the A8?
What's wrong with this exit?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 01:18 PM   #13589
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Everything! But - weren't the exits on the A8 designed for tolls? That might explain it...
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Old January 1st, 2015, 02:50 PM   #13590
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Everything! But - weren't the exits on the A8 designed for tolls? That might explain it...
They were. A8 was removed from the list of toll roads in October 2011, when road had been already opened.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 03:26 PM   #13591
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They were. A8 was removed from the list of toll roads in October 2011, when road had been already opened.
That explains the absurd design of that junction, then.

I wonder how they ever expected the A8 to work as a toll road?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 04:22 PM   #13592
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Another Polish "SPORT" driver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwaCNW0RZU


http://gliwice.gazeta.pl/gazetagliwi...l#TRLokGliwTxt

(I`m sorry I`m presnting Gazeta news)
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Old January 1st, 2015, 05:27 PM   #13593
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Originally Posted by jtybinka View Post
Another Polish "SPORT" driver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwaCNW0RZU


http://gliwice.gazeta.pl/gazetagliwi...l#TRLokGliwTxt

(I`m sorry I`m presnting Gazeta news)
What a bloody moron, what was he thinking??
On the other hand bloke was driving BMW, what else could we expect.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 07:39 PM   #13594
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Now can we please return to discussing infrastructure?
Obviously not.

Some news from the end of 2014:

- Contract was signed with Budimex for construction of Bełchatów bypass (DK74). 11 km of grade-separated 2+1 GP class road. Completion date - spring 2017

- S8 section Białystok - Jeżewo finally has a 120 km/h speed limit (it used to have 100km/h because of lack of noise barriers)

- Tenders for construction of S8 motorway between Wyszków and Ostrów Mazowiecka (29 km) have been launched.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 08:43 PM   #13595
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What a bloody moron, what was he thinking??
On the other hand bloke was driving BMW, what else could we expect.
And it's this sort of nonsense that causes many fatalities.

What's going on with the tender for the S5 north of Leszno? It was supposed to have gone to tender by now, but nothing...
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Old January 1st, 2015, 10:19 PM   #13596
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Summary of new roads opened in 2014.

287 km of A or S class motorways
169 km of other roads (town bypasses etc.)

Total 456 km

Here is a summary of these "other roads". It's in Polish but I think it is understandable. Blue color - upgraded roads (second carriageway added or upgraded to grade-separated)

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Old January 1st, 2015, 10:59 PM   #13597
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With the list above, now would be a great time for someone to explain exactly what the differences are among GP, G, and Z class roads. Please.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 11:22 PM   #13598
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It determines parameters such as lane width, minimum distance between intersections, structure gauge etc.

Check the tables here:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droga_klasy_GP
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droga_klasy_G
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droga_klasy_Z

Najmniejsza szerokość drogi w liniach rozgraniczających - minimum width of a road
Szerokość pasa ruchu - lane width
Minimalne odległości między skrzyżowaniami - minimum distance between intersections
Największa długość odcinka prostego - maximum length of a straight section
Szerokość pobocza gruntowego - width of road verge
Szerokość pobocza utwardzonego - width of hard shoulder
Minimalna odległość chodnika od krawędzi jezdni - minimum distance between carriageway and sidewalk
Minimalna wysokość skrajni drogi - minimum height of structure gauge
na terenie zabudowy - in built-up area
poza terenem zabudowy - outside of built-up area
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:41 AM   #13599
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Breakdown on the motorway.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:59 AM   #13600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
What a bloody moron, what was he thinking??
On the other hand bloke was driving BMW, what else could we expect.
The average BMW driver is much better than the average Minivan/mini mpv or city tin can driver!
But this BMW driver is a complete imbecile, should be jailed for a couple of years and disallowed to ever drive.

There is nothing wrong with flashing your main beams though, this is allowed under the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals, Article 28.
Outside of built up areas you are allowed to show drivers using optical signals that you are intending to overtake them.

Quote:
ARTICLE 28
Audible and luminous warnings

1. Audible warning devices may be used only:
(a) To give due warning with a view to avoiding an accident;
(b) Outside built-up areas when it is desirable to warn a driver that he is about to be
overtaken.

The sounds emitted by audible warning devices shall not be prolonged more than necessary.

2. Motor-vehicle drivers may give the luminous warnings specified in Article 32, paragraph 3,
of this Convention, instead of audible warnings, between nightfall and dawn. They may also do so
in daylight hours for the purpose indicated in paragraph 1 (b) of this Article,
if to do so is more
appropriate in the prevailing circumstances.

3. Contracting Parties or subdivisions thereof may authorize the use of luminous warnings in
built-up areas also for the purpose referred to in paragraph 1 (b) of this Article.

Last edited by snowdog; January 2nd, 2015 at 01:08 AM.
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