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Old May 26th, 2015, 09:56 PM   #14301
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is there any chance that some of these projects will be cancelled if the ultra right wing gets in in the fall elections (God forbid)?
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Old May 26th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #14302
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I would expect shift more attention to eastern Poland, where most of right wing (PiS) voters live. So maybe some project would get more money like S19 on cost of curent priorities... but that is just loose predictions. Who knows what is going to happen in fall's elections.
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Old May 26th, 2015, 11:27 PM   #14303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciek_CK View Post
Bids were chosen for Warsaw Southern Bypass (S2). The contracts go to Astaldi, Gϋlermak and Warbud. Staggering savings: 1 762 million PLN / € 443.2 million. GDDKiA assured that they were carefully vetted.




Good news, that means they almost got the monies to fund the S7 Kielce- Kraków, which is on the main list, but without financing ( or rather with the financing depending on the savings from other contracts).

On the other hand we have mixed experience with Turkish companies locally in Kraków- they failed to finish the fast tram line project some years ago. Do not recall the name of that contractor thou..
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Old May 27th, 2015, 01:23 AM   #14304
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Winning offer by Turkish company Gullermark was 757 mln PLN - almost 1bln PLN less than budget for this section was projected !!! I am sorry, but there is no way it is going to be real, like it wasn't with Chinese company Covec. Looks like no lesson was learn from that previous very painful history...
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Old May 27th, 2015, 01:28 AM   #14305
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it isn't that painful

In any other country (e.g. Canada) you end up 1 bln dollars OVER budget and still it ends up just as late

They are trying to build a bridge in Montreal, the length about 3,4 km and the estimate is already around 20 bln PLN with 10 year time... it makes Mszana look like something easy
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Old May 27th, 2015, 02:16 AM   #14306
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757 mln PLN - that's only € 183 million

Does the cost include all of the ca 19 km section with a 2.3 km tunnel and a bridge over Wisla? If so, there is NO way they can build it so cheaply... The projected €400 million or so looks a lot more realistic.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:40 AM   #14307
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Nope, that price include only middle section with bridge over Wisla. Full project cost around 2,5 bln Pln.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:44 AM   #14308
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I know I know... the Turkish forgot to calculate for the sound barriers!
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Old May 27th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #14309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Winning offer by Turkish company Gullermark was 757 mln PLN - almost 1bln PLN less than budget for this section was projected !!! I am sorry, but there is no way it is going to be real, like it wasn't with Chinese company Covec. Looks like no lesson was learn from that previous very painful history...
Was it painful? I think GDDKiA has very good bank guarantees in place, very good quality and schedule control. If the companies don't deliver, they lose contract, they lose money, and GDDKiA quickly tenders the project to someone else. It gets any additional costs, if there are any, covered by the guarantee and it doesn't have to pay for already made work.

With a good system, the companies simply can't enter the tender as fakes without seriously facing up losing money. I like it.

We also did not hear about all those complaints against GDDKiA anymore. How did it go? Are there any courts going on with all those companies that defaulted on their contracts?

Btw, the Mszana bridge indeed turned out to be a success. Just compared the Mszanna bridge on Polish D1, tendered 3 times, very good quality check up by GDDKiA. And look at the bridges of Czech D1 in Ostrava. Opened on time, but total quality cluster****, overpriced, and awarded to Eurovia which bore almost none risks. It clearly shows the difference in tendering approach and the level of the tendering and quality control. Hopefully, the tenders in CZ improved somewhat.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 01:21 PM   #14310
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They can't pass up an opportunity to save a billion złotych. Note that many projects are below budget, so S2 in Warsaw is not an exception.

It's very difficult to rule out a bid based on assumptions that it's too cheap. The court will dismiss such concerns. Note that the most expensive offer was still half a billion złotych below budget. Mota-Engil bid only 18 million złotych more than Gülermak.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:29 PM   #14311
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@Surel
Mszana bridge now is ready, A2-between Lodz and Warszawa is ready also. But did you forget already how long it took to finish especially that infamous bridge? It is not that quick to replace one contractor with another. So that was my consideration, time not just money. Also to add to that, some parts like S69 or remaining section of A4 are still under construction, It is soooo long overdue. So it is not that pain - free as you would suggest.
@ChrisZwolle
I would love to be a true that this is a realistic cost. If so, one would ask why GDDiKA estimates budged for over 1bln PLN (2 bln PLN for whole 3 sections) higher than it should? Just some changes in cost of materials if there was one recently I think it wouldn't be enough to explain that.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:39 PM   #14312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
it isn't that painful

In any other country (e.g. Canada) you end up 1 bln dollars OVER budget and still it ends up just as late

They are trying to build a bridge in Montreal, the length about 3,4 km and the estimate is already around 20 bln PLN with 10 year time... it makes Mszana look like something easy
Il all fairness, with the approaches, the Champlain bridge project is more around 6.5km, not 3.4km, and the bridge will be built in 3 years (construction starting in 2015, ending in 2018 for the bridge portion), not 10.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #14313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
is there any chance that some of these projects will be cancelled if the ultra right wing gets in in the fall elections (God forbid)?
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Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
I would expect shift more attention to eastern Poland, where most of right wing (PiS) voters live. So maybe some project would get more money like S19 on cost of curent priorities... but that is just loose predictions.
A shift of priorities eastward is just part of it. The bigger consequence would be the replacement of all the competent managers at GDDKiA with relatives of PiS politicians, resulting in bad tendering practices, about half the rate of construction, for about twice the money, at about half the quality. Road construction in Poland could become worse than in Czech Republic.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 06:41 PM   #14314
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yes PIS is known for incompetence, chaos and nepotism, so hopefully they will not win and one of the best managed highway construction projects in the world will be allowed to continue. Polish people never realize how good they have it until it's too late, but highways are one thing people really universally praise in Poland no matter what party you like. maybe GDDKIA workers should form a union along with other unions and strike to prevent such a travesty from happening that is if they try to replace qualified people with politically connected ones.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:05 PM   #14315
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Well, I had a look at Turkish forum, and it`s hard to believe but they built in Turkey 25 000 kilometres of as they call them devided roads which is 4 lines at least it coveres all country , they only minus is they don`t have full expressway standard , they are not grade separated
http://www.kgm.gov.tr/SiteCollection...musyol2014.png

Last edited by jtybinka; May 27th, 2015 at 08:14 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #14316
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In Turkey's case the divided highways are simple duplication of the existing road. Cities often lack a good bypass and these roads have no or few interchanges, more like Gierkówka than a droga ekspresowa.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:19 PM   #14317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtybinka View Post
Well, I had a look at Turkish forum, and it`s hard to believe but they built in Turkey 25 000 kilometres of as they call them devided roads which is 4 lines at least it coveres all country , they only minus is they don`t have full expressway standard , they are not grade separated
http://www.kgm.gov.tr/SiteCollection...musyol2014.png
That attached map is impressive. Can you translate colors?
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:41 PM   #14318
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In the meantime. Saving flower's life on construction site of S19 near Lublin

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632. Operator koparki sporo musiał się natrudzić, by ocalić kwiat...

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Old May 27th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #14319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
That attached map is impressive. Can you translate colors?
I think this would be a translation (using google translate plus what I read in Turkish forum , I think I`m rnot mistaken)
red - in operation
blue - in construction
green - will be tendered

Last edited by jtybinka; May 27th, 2015 at 09:19 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 09:18 PM   #14320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In Turkey's case the divided highways are simple duplication of the existing road. Cities often lack a good bypass and these roads have no or few interchanges, more like Gierkówka than a droga ekspresowa.
In 70s we were going Turkish strategy but we did almost nothing only Gierkowka
and few short sections like Zakopianka or Wislanka
Well from today perspective seems that Ekspresowa is much better solutions
but we have few of them and not completed and travelling in whole Turkey
seems luxurious compared what we have in Poland
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