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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:47 AM   #14381
mcarling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Absolutely agreed. I'd be happy with even a S2 road for the time being....
I don't understand what you mean by an "S2 road". In my opinion, a 2x2 road is needed. A 2+1 road would help, but not enough.

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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Even getting the S8 to Łagiewniki would really help a lot - that first 10-15km of DK8 is a nightmare, especially after the A8.
Agreed. Building the S8 to Łagiewniki would be a good start. Between Łagiewniki and Klodzko, there are several overtaking lanes, though they are insufficient.

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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Klodzko-CZ border is only tolerable because of the ban on transit truck traffic. If they opened up the border to all, it would become very quickly intolerable I suspect.
Agreed. I'm not very worried about this because the roads on the CZ side seem even more unsuitable for truck traffic.

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Still, the DK33 can be dangerous....
Absolutely! But (realistically) what to do about it?
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Old June 27th, 2015, 07:31 PM   #14382
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An overtaking lane on a Polish road is a defacto 2x2
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Old June 27th, 2015, 09:25 PM   #14383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I don't understand what you mean by an "S2 road". In my opinion, a 2x2 road is needed. A 2+1 road would help, but not enough.
S2 is just another way of writing a single carriageway road (1x2?). It would work, but only if it was completely separated - and preferably of a decent width to allow easy overtaking. It should really be on a new alignment, and should allow easy upgrading to a 2x2 road in future.

Even if the whole route wasn't completed like this, at least getting some bypasses in place would help immeasurably. What I've found on my trips along the DK8 is that most of the frustration comes from the traffic lights on the way.

Quote:
Agreed. Building the S8 to Łagiewniki would be a good start. Between Łagiewniki and Klodzko, there are several overtaking lanes, though they are insufficient.
Yes, and they're quite dangerous - people are frustrated after being held up for hours, and they tend to act like idiots on those short sections. After Łagiewniki, the traffic does tend to fall away, but the overtaking opportunities are just too few to mention. I've stopped several times in frustration after being stuck behind several trucks and knowing that there's absolutely no way to pass them safely.

[quite]Absolutely! But (realistically) what to do about it?[/QUOTE]

Realistically, I think they could at least widen the road through the final 10km or so. The road is fine as far as Międzylesie, but a simple bypass of Międzylesie and widening it to the border would really help a lot.

I suspect PL is waiting to see what CZ does with the Brno-Svitavy route before considering any upgrades to DK33.

(as an aside, the border crossing only opened in 1985 and only for "friendly" citizens, which explains why the route hasn't really developed that much)
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Old June 27th, 2015, 09:34 PM   #14384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
S2 is just another way of writing a single carriageway road (1x2?).
Yes, it's a British thing. It doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere though... I've never seen it used in my daily Google road news queries nor on this forum. That may explain why people don't know it
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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:18 PM   #14385
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S8 Opacz-Paszków may open soon

Cleaned up Google translation of GDDKiA Facebook post of 30 minutes ago:

Construction of the expressway S8 Opacz-Paszków is coming to an end. Currently, we are looking forward to carrying out by the Provincial Inspectorate of building inspections necessary for the issuing of licences for the use of the route S8 of the Milanówek branch opened to Janki with a length of about 5 km.

The contractor filed a first application for a licence to use the main carriageway S8 with local roads. The road will be made available to drivers after receiving authorization for its use.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:31 PM   #14386
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I suppose the S8 will only open towards DK8? The branch to DK7 is less advanced on March/April 2015 imagery in Google Earth.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:54 PM   #14387
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exactly
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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:58 PM   #14388
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Sometimes SSC is providing better data than Google Earth...
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)
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Old June 28th, 2015, 02:17 AM   #14389
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I realize that there are higher priorities that are even more needed, so it would not have been reasonable to include an S8 extension from Wroclaw to Klodzko in the 2014 to 2020 funding cycle, but it really should be included in the 2021 to 2027 funding cycle.
The 2021-2027 funds will be much smaller for Poland because the major investments have been realizing since at least 10 years and continue for several upcoming years.

There are no official plans to extend S8 southwards. There is S3 planned and it's supposed to take transit to Czech Republic. Current DK8 will be improved but not significantly.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 06:29 AM   #14390
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The 2021-2027 funds will be much smaller for Poland because the major investments have been realizing since at least 10 years and continue for several upcoming years.
That is not how EU funding is determined. It's not even one of the factors.

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There are no official plans to extend S8 southwards. There is S3 planned and it's supposed to take transit to Czech Republic. Current DK8 will be improved but not significantly.
Plans change. What Eulanthe and I remarked upon is a need to extend the S8 southward from Wroclaw, not a plan to do so. Poland will create a construction plan for 2021-2027 after the EU will decide what they are willing to fund in Poland during 2021-2027. The EU do not simply decide on an amount of money and then let the member states build anything they want. The member states usually prioritize roads that connect cities within their state, but the EU care somewhat more than most member states about improving international connections -- especially within the EU. If the planners in Brussels tell Poland and the Czech Republic that they will pay 85% of the costs of a 2x2 highway between Wroclaw and Brno, then I think there is a very good chance that Poland will extend the S8 to Klodzko and CZ will build the R43 from Brno to Svitavy.

We'll see. There is nothing yet cast in stone about specific project approvals for 2021-2027.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 10:22 AM   #14391
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Plans change. What Eulanthe and I remarked upon is a need to extend the S8 southward from Wroclaw, not a plan to do so.
At the moment there might be need. But think perspectively - there is S3 planned and it will take some amount of transit traffic from DK8. The same thing is happening while completing of A1/E75 that takes S7/E77 traffic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The member states usually prioritize roads that connect cities within their state, but the EU care somewhat more than most member states about improving international connections -- especially within the EU. If the planners in Brussels tell Poland and the Czech Republic that they will pay 85% of the costs of a 2x2 highway between Wroclaw and Brno, then I think there is a very good chance that Poland will extend the S8 to Klodzko and CZ will build the R43 from Brno to Svitavy.
DK8/E67 is not currently among prioritiy european connections, E75 is. Keep in mind that EU has switched orientation towards rail connections and wouldn't accept funding another road in the region that doubles S3. This is my opinion. Anyway, traffic volumes on DK8 were not that high in 2010 - below 10 000 vehicels per day and around 10k-15k at significant junctions (Kłodzko, Bielany Wrocławskie). About 10-20% share are TIR trucks that are supposed to go via S3 in the future. The rest is mixed transit cars and local traffic.
I live near DK92 where traffic is quite similar 6k-9k and it happens to be really empty, with single cars passing at one minute and becomes busy only during rush hours. I believe quite same thing may happen to the DK8 once S3 is completed.

Last edited by Sponsor; June 28th, 2015 at 10:34 AM.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 10:22 PM   #14392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Poland will create a construction plan for 2021-2027 after the EU will decide what they are willing to fund in Poland during 2021-2027. The EU do not simply decide on an amount of money and then let the member states build anything they want. The member states usually prioritize roads that connect cities within their state, but the EU care somewhat more than most member states about improving international connections -- especially within the EU. If the planners in Brussels tell Poland and the Czech Republic that they will pay 85% of the costs of a 2x2 highway between Wroclaw and Brno, then I think there is a very good chance that Poland will extend the S8 to Klodzko and CZ will build the R43 from Brno to Svitavy.
You are simply wrong. EU do not order to states what must be built. It works otherwise. The states may build what they want and they can receive a refund from EU if EU decides that the road or railway or other investment is worth to refund what means that meet EU rules and requirements. EU can not and does not require from states any investment, EU doesn`t say to e.g. Poland or Czech Rep.: "U must build motorway/expressway b/w Wrocław and Brno".
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Old June 28th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #14393
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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
You are simply wrong. EU do not order to states what must be built. It works otherwise. The states may build what they want and they can receive a refund from EU if EU decides that the road or railway or other investment is worth to refund what means that meet EU rules and requirements. EU can not and does not require from states any investment, EU doesn`t say to e.g. Poland or Czech Rep.: "U must build motorway/expressway b/w Wrocław and Brno".
I don't think that's what mcarling said.

He wrote that EU might offer big incentive to build international connection and in the same time restrict funding on other internal projects.

Technically nobody will force PL or CZ to build any roads but offer might be just too good to refuse and at the same time other projects might be penalized.

Anyway, at this point it is just pure speculation.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #14394
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Looking forward to do the part from Augustow to Gdansk the upcoming Saturday. While I was searching Google Maps, it gave me multiple choices how it would be possible to do it. There were some suggestions to take smaller national roads, but I believe sticking with the DK's would be a safer option.

1. 16 all the way from Augustow to Ostroda (through Mikolajki, or by pass trough Ryn on 642 and 59). Last part 7 and S7 till Gdansk.

2. 61 from Augustow to Szczuczyn. Turning to 58 until Stare Kiełbonki. Then 59 till Mragowo, turning to 16 till Ostroda. Finishing on the same 7-S7 part.

3. 61 from Augustow to Szczuczyn. Turning to 58 and going all the way to Olstynek. Finishing again on 7-S7.

I know that from Mragowo till Olsztyn there is a 2x2 which seems to be a way to shorten the overall travel time. However I heard that taking the 58 might also seem to be a good option.

Any suggestions? What would you believe would be the approximate time of travel? Where could one expect less trucks?
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Old June 28th, 2015, 11:49 PM   #14395
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Can't answer all your questions, but you should know that 2x2 on DK16 is actually only between Borki Wielkie and Biskupiec, about 10 km. Further west, between Biskupiec and Barczewo the road meets single carriageway expressway standard (although is signed as regular road) and the rest of Mrągowo - Olsztyn route is orginary national road. There are plans to make this whole section 2x2 grade separated, but this is remote future. For your routing, you can use national road quality map: http://ssc.siskom.waw.pl/mapa-nawier...wierzchnia.png
key:
green to red - very good quality to very bad quality
blue - road under construction/reconstruction
grey - no data
brown - sett road (dunno if it's actually used on map)

Also when I used google maps for routing Augustów - Gdańsk, is suggested Augustów - Ełk - Giżycko - Kętrzyn - Bartoszyce - Żelazna Góra and S22 to Elbląg, then 7 and S7. This option seemed odd to me, but it's not longer than other options (actually shorter than through Ostróda) and I guess you shouldn't expect many trucks between Giżycko and Żelazna Góra. But you could expect them on S22 and it's single carriageway...

For future reference, here's site that contains information about truck traffic bans in Europe, so you can plan your trip accordingly: http://trafficban.com/
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Old June 29th, 2015, 02:46 AM   #14396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
You are simply wrong. EU do not order to states what must be built.
I never wrote that the EU order member states to build anything. The EU decides what it is willing to fund. Then then member states decide what they will build. Usually the member states choose from among projects that the EU is willing to fund in preference to projects that the EU is not (at the time) willing to fund, but not always.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 12:28 PM   #14397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarolisGr View Post
Looking forward to do the part from Augustow to Gdansk the upcoming Saturday. While I was searching Google Maps, it gave me multiple choices how it would be possible to do it. There were some suggestions to take smaller national roads, but I believe sticking with the DK's would be a safer option.
Generally, roads in this region of Poland are narrow, winding and in bad condition - both DK's and DW's. Don't get fooled by DK16's low number, because this is how it looks like between Orzysz and Mikołajki:
http://www.google.pl/maps/@53.862784...7i13312!8i6656

So, no matter which route you choose, the trip won't be comfortable.
Maybe try this? http://www.google.pl/maps/dir/53.835...aa37b2!1m0!3e0
There are some freshly modernised DW roads and you bypass Olsztyn.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 02:26 PM   #14398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I never wrote that the EU order member states to build anything. The EU decides what it is willing to fund. Then then member states decide what they will build. Usually the member states choose from among projects that the EU is willing to fund in preference to projects that the EU is not (at the time) willing to fund, but not always.
All right, maybe little misunderstanding
I suppose, first step must be made by PL and CZ authorities (some kind of agreement), next submitted to EU for approving of whole idea of new connection if is going to be financed by EU.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 07:12 PM   #14399
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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
All right, maybe little misunderstanding.
It seems so.

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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
I suppose, first step must be made by PL and CZ authorities (some kind of agreement), next submitted to EU for approving of whole idea of new connection if is going to be financed by EU.
Yes, but we're still a few years away from setting priorities for the 2021-2027 funding cycle. Also, if Poland and the Czech Republic were to agree to mutually support an S8 extension to Klodzko and construction of the R43 from Brno to Svitavy, they would line up support from AT, SK, and HU before going to the EU to champion the idea. It's all very political.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #14400
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Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Maybe try this? http://www.google.pl/maps/dir/53.835...aa37b2!1m0!3e0
There are some freshly modernised DW roads and you bypass Olsztyn.
I am driving from Suwalki to Gdynia tomorrow and I am going to choose this road. AFAIK the only slightly worse fragments are Olecko - Wydminy and Gizycko - Ketrzyn. Quality of the rest is very good and there are not so many trucks.
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