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Old December 20th, 2015, 08:11 PM   #15061
Kanadzie
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That is so Poland . They built a "Berlin wall" between themselves !

Just because the law says you to with completely retarted and stupid bureaucrats on the top...and generous bribes this sound wall company has been generously distributing for years . Third World in its splendour
Not really, there are no sound barriers in Third World and control of access on roads is generally not existant

To be honest it looks like the sound barrier is the bigger problem. If they used no sound barrier or the transparent glass type (e.g. like towards central Krakow) it would be fine IMO
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Old December 20th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #15062
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I thought that strict noise protection law (the strictest law in Europe) was already loosen few years ago and there is no need to built such a monsters... I was wrong...
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Old December 21st, 2015, 12:22 AM   #15063
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I thought that strict noise protection law (the strictest law in Europe) was already loosen few years ago and there is no need to built such a monsters... I was wrong...
The barriers are down right ugly but there is general problem with this route. It slices through center of the town. Outside the short tunnel section it really separates north and south of city centre, especially east of the tunnel.

The tunnel section should simply be longer. If tunnel was to expensive the roadway should be lowered and lots of bridges built over it.

I-670 south of downtown Kansas City is example of what I have in mind.

For the moment the new highway cuts town in two, like here:
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Old December 21st, 2015, 03:33 PM   #15064
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Well, to be fair, railroads also cut Gliwice in two like the expressway does. But they generally don't come with the incredibly ugly sound barriers that Poland uses on its highways. I mean, nearly all of these sound barriers are identically, some are taller than others, but they seem to generally come from the same producer.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 03:39 PM   #15065
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Railways were also built 100+ years ago (at least in city centres). You wouldn't build an at-grade railway through dense parts of the city today.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 04:11 PM   #15066
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You wouldn't build an at-grade railway through dense parts of the city today.
I wouldn't build an at-grade railway through dense parts of a city, but many cities are building idiotic trams rather than intelligent light metros (like the Toulouse metro, for example). Penny wise, pound foolish.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 05:59 PM   #15067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Not really, there are no sound barriers in Third World and control of access on roads is generally not existant

To be honest it looks like the sound barrier is the bigger problem. If they used no sound barrier or the transparent glass type (e.g. like towards central Krakow) it would be fine IMO
It doesn't matter if it's a sound barrier, fact is it's just an ugly 6 meters high wall. By the way, what an idea to built such wall in downtown cutting streets and neighborhoods . Would have been preferable and much more desirable for everyone to built the new road in a trench (recovered or not) - like Warsaw's Trasa Łazienkowska in the 1970's - or a "box" at least with a green promenade over:



Even in poor countries "separation" walls aren't that high and they tend to be painted usually:
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Old December 21st, 2015, 06:07 PM   #15068
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Railways were also built 100+ years ago (at least in city centres). You wouldn't build an at-grade railway through dense parts of the city today.
As a matter of fact, these "old" railways are normaly elevated or undeground in densely populated centre areas. At-grade railways are extremely rare, especially in bigger cities downtowns.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 06:34 PM   #15069
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Well, to be fair, railroads also cut Gliwice in two like the expressway does.
Railways cutting cities in half are simply a myth. Gliwice is a prime example of that as during construction station was build on green fields 1 km from the city centre which documents this map but with railways came rapid development and two decades later maps show already densely build up area. So it was quite the opposite - the city overgrown railways which spurred its development. Unfortunately we can't say the same thing about urban motorways which tend to have destructive influence on urban structure.

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But they generally don't come with the incredibly ugly sound barriers that Poland uses on its highways.
Don't worry sooner or later railways will have to build sound barriers also around this station which will be similarly ugly to the road ones
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Old December 21st, 2015, 07:11 PM   #15070
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No, that's just using two different yardsticks. Whether the city has overgrown a corridor, or if a corridor has been built through an existing city eventually ends up being essentially the same thing; a corridor through a city (whether road or rail).
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Old December 21st, 2015, 07:52 PM   #15071
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No, that's just using two different yardsticks. Whether the city has overgrown a corridor, or if a corridor has been built through an existing city eventually ends up being essentially the same thing; a corridor through a city (whether road or rail).
Okay... you seem fulfilled?
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:13 AM   #15072
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I disagree with such covered roads with fake grass on top... tunnel is good for a purpose (e.g. overpass, buildings) but random park is just invitation for urban decay kind of result (e.g. Viger Park in Montreal over A-720 freeway)
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:57 AM   #15073
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I disagree with such covered roads with fake grass on top... tunnel is good for a purpose (e.g. overpass, buildings) but random park is just invitation for urban decay kind of result (e.g. Viger Park in Montreal over A-720 freeway)
Square Viger might suffer from many problems (being placed randomly over an expressway instead of intelligently doesn't help), but what really does it in is its own failed urban design.
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As a matter of fact, these "old" railways are normaly elevated or undeground in densely populated centre areas. At-grade railways are extremely rare, especially in bigger cities downtowns.
That's not ... entirely true.

For example, in Philadelphia, up to about the turn of the century, the major rail corridors were all at grade level. It was a combination of constructing new corridors and grade-separating existing ones -- which kept both the railroads and the city preoccupied for some thirty years and was never fully completed -- that led to the city's current rail net.
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No, that's just using two different yardsticks. Whether the city has overgrown a corridor, or if a corridor has been built through an existing city eventually ends up being essentially the same thing; a corridor through a city (whether road or rail).
On one hand, a corridor is a corridor, and major transportation corridors have clear, marked detrimental impacts on the neighborhoods they run through. (The lone exception to this rule appears to be bike corridors, as major bike corridors are often treated as linear parks.)

On the other, there is something somewhat ahistoric about arguing that highway and rail corridors should be treated in like manner. Rail corridors were, as a rule, generally not forcibly rammed through built-up areas; the location of major terminals like the Gares d'est et du nord in Paris, or King's Cross and Euston in London, reflect the edge of the conurbation when those termini were built. This is because early railroads were private enterprises, and the cost of acquiring those kinds of corridors would have been prohibitive.

By contrast, motorways have long been publicly-financed and -built, and because of that, have access to tools and funding streams that were historically unavailable to railroads. The PRR couldn't use eminent domain to condemn and evict owners from property when it built Penn Station; its only recourse was to purchase the property at whatever the owner cared to sell at. But because motorways were state-sanctioned projects that had these kinds of powers, they could be (and in the U.S., often were) used to condemn entire neighborhoods at a swath, ramming through the urban fabric, eating space with widespread adverse impacts.

From a historical perspective, rail corridors were not as impactful as the city grew around them. When they were built, they were, by and large, beyond the edge of the conurbation. They're usually also much narrower. Highway corridors instead tended to divide existing neighborhoods, creating or exacerbating downward trends, and generally requiring more time for the city to heal around them. Even in D.C. the city has yet to truly heal from the impact of its major highway corridors (though it's getting there).

Usually Europeans are thought of as more enlightened. Unfortunately, the Poles seem to be working from the Americans' guidebook What Not To Do.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 12:36 PM   #15074
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About railways, I doubt it. In Kyiv entire neighbourhoods are divided because Soviets built too much rail which now rusts. There are also entire garage sectors, which are now mostly in mould. These are the criminal sectors and are notorious for a full spectre of crimes committed. I guess a badly managed road is not that evil as bad rail. It just rips the city apart. Gliwice is very unlucky to get those plans, so they'd rather spend extra 60-100 mln zl to lighten the effects. I WISH NO BIG CITY HAD AT-GRADE RAIL!!! Btw, what is up with Mszczonow bypass(S8)? It is an expwy which isn't expwy for some unknown reason. Uh??
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Old December 24th, 2015, 02:36 PM   #15075
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Btw, what is up with Mszczonow bypass(S8)? It is an expwy which isn't expwy for some unknown reason. Uh??
The reason is simply unknown. Works on this section have finished over 2 years ago.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 03:04 PM   #15076
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About railways, I doubt it. In Kyiv entire neighbourhoods are divided because Soviets built too much rail which now rusts. There are also entire garage sectors, which are now mostly in mould. These are the criminal sectors and are notorious for a full spectre of crimes committed. I guess a badly managed road is not that evil as bad rail. It just rips the city apart. Gliwice is very unlucky to get those plans, so they'd rather spend extra 60-100 mln zl to lighten the effects. I WISH NO BIG CITY HAD AT-GRADE RAIL!!!
Well, I sincerely doubt that someone with nick "ukraroad" will write anything positive about railways not to mention to pose neutral judgment. Fact that Ukraine is falling in love with cars and discards railways doesn't mean that western countries are thinking the same - it is quite opposite, the west is reinventing railways while Poland is stuck somewhere in the middle learning in accelerated pace the downturns of road traffic and trying to pardon with rail transport before it's too late. But not to worry 10-20 years and Ukraine will face the same problems
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Old December 25th, 2015, 01:20 AM   #15077
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
No, that's just using two different yardsticks. Whether the city has overgrown a corridor, or if a corridor has been built through an existing city eventually ends up being essentially the same thing; a corridor through a city (whether road or rail).
To broaden the scope here a bit:
I'm not sure if it is the case with this one, but those "corridors" were built mostly in the 70's. Some are very useful, despite being eyesores. They were built according to bold plans, sometimes quite drastic. In a sense, those corridors are gold. A lot of "new" construction, from the EU era, have been the extensions to them. No way you could do something so drastic from the scratch nowadays. As much as I despise them, I've got to admit that commies didn't care about NIMBY, they built within a few years.

Now as a Dutchman you know the value of non-NIMBY construction, don't you?

To sum it up, those ugly barriers are an addition to IMHO often valuable developments that would be impossible nowadays.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 05:28 PM   #15078
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Is this map correct that DK12 used to run across what is now DK18 / A18?

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Old December 25th, 2015, 09:29 PM   #15079
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Yes, correct in the 1990s.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 10:01 PM   #15080
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Very old map. There isn't even Zary's bypass the first part of which was finished in 1998.
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