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Old March 2nd, 2016, 12:14 AM   #15301
John Maynard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMB View Post
No, it's policies.
Even the latter posts are a way or another concerning politics - I said it: it's inseparable with road construction and related issues, such as prolongation of S8, tolls, fuel taxes, etc.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 01:44 AM   #15302
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I hope they will introduce vignette - for A and S roads - like in Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland and in many others countries. Tolling the expressways alone is just an extremely stupid idea otherwise . Of course, having a free Autobahn network like in Germany is a dream...
A vignette system would be nice, but I think there's the slight obstacle of the A1/A2/A4 concessionaires. Buying them out would be expensive - yet it would be impossible to leave them in place if other roads needed a vignette.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 05:13 AM   #15303
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I hope they will introduce vignette - for A and S roads - like in Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland and in many others countries. Tolling the expressways alone is just an extremely stupid idea otherwise . Of course, having a free Autobahn network like in Germany is a dream...
You know, if you just get Polish people to all earn what their counterparts in Germany do, Poland could reduce tax rates and still have hella cash to spend on anything and free highways everywhere. Polish people in Germany, UK and USA are generally rich and successful so certainly it is possible.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:17 AM   #15304
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
A vignette system would be nice, but I think there's the slight obstacle of the A1/A2/A4 concessionaires. Buying them out would be expensive - yet it would be impossible to leave them in place if other roads needed a vignette.
Well, Austria has such a system. Several key routes require a separate toll (Sondermaut). Officially you do not need a vignette there, but to drive one logical route, you need both a vignette and pay the separate tolls.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 01:21 PM   #15305
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Actually, in Austria most of these additional tolls are concerning long transalpine tunnels - the only exception is the A13 "short" motorway connecting Innsbruck to Italy. All of the motorways/expressways, including separated tolled ones, are managed by the publicly owned corporation ASFiNAG. This is no way comparable to Poland, as there is virtually no tunnels, and unlike Austria, there are also private companies concessionaires.

Here is a map of tolls in Austria (orange: vignette; blue: additional toll):


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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
You know, if you just get Polish people to all earn what their counterparts in Germany do, Poland could reduce tax rates and still have hella cash to spend on anything and free highways everywhere. Polish people in Germany, UK and USA are generally rich and successful so certainly it is possible.
I know that Ireland launched an appeal recently to its emigrants to take jobs in their homeland: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-369857.html
But, to obtain a similar situation in Poland, this will take some more decades, before Poland could provide an interesting and comparable Western level of life and jobs vacancies for its diaspora to come back to Poland.
By the way, for what have I seen in the UK and in Germany, many of these Poles are poor people working on minimum salaries and even below .
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 06:09 PM   #15306
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I'm sorry but you are so wrong about the quality of life in Poland. Yes indeed wages are lower, but they buy a lot more and the cost of housing is a 1/4 of UK or Ireland. I know because my cousins have just got their first good jobs and have bought homes. These homes are very much like the starter homes young people get in Canada. But yes again social services in some respects aren't as good, but if you look at the stats, life spans are just as high, poverty levels are actually lower than in UK and many countries in OECD, female equality, literacy, car ownership education levels etc also among the best in the world. Some Polish emigrants do find good jobs at the bottom of the corporate ladder, but the vast majority I see here are low wage labour jobs with no security, delivering furniture and digging on construction sites etc and they live with relatives. These people will never own homes. My parents generation post war managed to get the homes the anglo-saxons abandoned in city centres when they moved en masse to the suburbs in the 50's and later, now the city centre is the most desirable so their Polish-Canadian children now have come into a lot of money. Our generation could never afford those hiomes right now. On the contrary, in Poland there are lots of government programs to help with the first house purchase.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 08:40 PM   #15307
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I'm sorry but you are so wrong about the quality of life in Poland. Yes indeed wages are lower, but they buy a lot more and the cost of housing is a 1/4 of UK or Ireland. I know because my cousins have just got their first good jobs and have bought homes. These homes are very much like the starter homes young people get in Canada. But yes again social services in some respects aren't as good, but if you look at the stats, life spans are just as high, poverty levels are actually lower than in UK and many countries in OECD, female equality, literacy, car ownership education levels etc also among the best in the world. Some Polish emigrants do find good jobs at the bottom of the corporate ladder, but the vast majority I see here are low wage labour jobs with no security, delivering furniture and digging on construction sites etc and they live with relatives. These people will never own homes. My parents generation post war managed to get the homes the anglo-saxons abandoned in city centres when they moved en masse to the suburbs in the 50's and later, now the city centre is the most desirable so their Polish-Canadian children now have come into a lot of money. Our generation could never afford those hiomes right now. On the contrary, in Poland there are lots of government programs to help with the first house purchase.
I agree.

I live in the outskirts of Nowy Targ with my two girls
We have a 5-bedroom, 2 bathroom 150 sq m. (1,400 sq ft) house, for which we pay 1000 PLN per month. I work for a IT company in Kraków, an hour north, and my partner works for the municipal government in Nowy Targ. Our combined income after taxes is about 6000 to 8000 PLN, as I do some freelance stuff on the side - sometimes I have some extra, sometimes I don't.

Sure, for Western European standards, €1,500 to €2,000 for a double-income, young couple is not that great, but we have a good sized home, two cars, we can afford going on road trips around Poland on a regular basis, we can eat out if we want, and if we take care about choosing our destination, we can also go on holidays on a regular basis.

What this income doesn't allow, is living like the people portrayed on Hollywood shows. But then again, very few people in Western Europe or the US are able to live like that, unless they come from a wealthy background. I've lived in the United States, the Netherlands, Scotland, Germany, Norway and Poland - and the standard of living in all these countries is rather similar for most people - Norway and the US being a bit of exceptions, if you're Norwegian, anywhere you go outside of Norway is dirt cheap. In the US, it really sucks to be poor. I'd rather be in the bottom 20% in Poland than in the US.

But for average, middle-class people, there really isn't that much difference. In Amsterdam, we would probably make double the salary, probably between €3000 and €4000 for the both of us, but even if one lives 100 kilometers outside the office, like me, a 150 square meter detached home would be easily €1000 instead of 1000 PLN, if not more. Commuting costs for me would run towards €600 instead of 800-1000 PLN. Insurance for the cars would be three times what we pay now, and for the large diesel which I drive, road tax will be going towards €400-500 every three months. Going out for dinner somewhere will set you back €30-40 per person instead of about 50 PLN.

A lot of young Polish people go out there to work, because they see the €1200 minimum wage which is three times higher than the minimum wage in Poland, but they quickly find that they need to spend half of it just to cover their basic bills. Often in Poland, these people can live in their parents' house for free. In the end, they maybe make €200 or €300 more per month than they would in Poland, but then they don't have grandma cooking them food and if their car breaks down and they need to bring it to a service in the Netherlands, they can kiss their month's salary goodbye. Any entertainment except sitting in your living room and drinking supermarket beer is unaffordable on that wage. Just as it is in Poland being on minimum wage.

In terms of quality of life - in the end there isn't any difference between being on minimum wage in Poland or being on minimum wage in the Netherlands.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 08:57 PM   #15308
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We are in [PL] Poland | road infrastructure thread, not in Economy Thread....
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:38 PM   #15309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
Sure, for Western European standards, €1,500 to €2,000 for a double-income, young couple is not that great, but we have a good sized home, two cars, we can afford going on road trips around Poland on a regular basis, we can eat out if we want, and if we take care about choosing our destination, we can also go on holidays on a regular basis.
With the salary you've mentionned here there is no way you could afford all of these. How many credits have you contracted, or perhaps inherited (per ex, house from your parents)?

Also, you are not representative of all Poles, but of a minority of them, though on the rise. Most of Poles living in cities live in ugly and crappy commieblocks and earn somewhere beetween the minimum salary and average salary: ~ 400-800 € per month - plus, they have basic spendings like you or even more than you. Not so rosy .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
But for average, middle-class people, there really isn't that much difference.
For instance, "middle-class" people aren't that largely recurrent in Poland, and prices aren't that low when compared to wages, qualities of services aren't that good as many Westerners may imagine, and I expressly know that.
Also, "Middle-class" in Poland = upper "Lower-class" in many parts of the West.

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Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
A lot of young Polish people go out there to work, because they see the €1200 minimum wage which is three times higher than the minimum wage in Poland, but they quickly find that they need to spend half of it just to cover their basic bills. Often in Poland, these people can live in their parents' house for free. In the end, they maybe make €200 or €300 more per month than they would in Poland, but then they don't have grandma cooking them food and if their car breaks down and they need to bring it to a service in the Netherlands, they can kiss their month's salary goodbye. Any entertainment except sitting in your living room and drinking supermarket beer is unaffordable on that wage. Just as it is in Poland being on minimum wage.

In terms of quality of life - in the end there isn't any difference between being on minimum wage in Poland or being on minimum wage in the Netherlands.
Curiously, once all of these emigrants have gone from Poland very few returns, even when you said they have many things for "free" in Poland.
Apparently, they prefer to live in the West, even on minimum salaries and lower positions than in Poland, where they have to struggle much more.
Furthermore, there is huge unemployment in many areas in Poland.

But, for sure, you can go to the West and repeat to your fellow Poles how great life is in Poland, so there will be a massive flow back to Poland - and solve demographic problem, btw. .

Last edited by John Maynard; March 5th, 2016 at 05:41 PM.
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Old March 3rd, 2016, 11:00 AM   #15310
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Today a contract will be signed for construction of Koszalin bypass:

S6: Bielice (S11) – Sianów-East 19.3km (March 2016 to July 2018) – project – map
S11: Bielice (S6) – Koszalin-West 2.0km (March 2016 to July 2018) – project – map
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Old March 4th, 2016, 10:42 AM   #15311
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Via Carpatia - Declaration about further cooperation signed

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The new connection of Northern with Southern Europe(from Klaipeda to Thessaloniki), which integrates the system of the road infrastructure of Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece; making the new safe corridor at the eastern borders of the EU and the development of trade between the countries of Baltic and Carpathian regions - these are the main targets of the international highway Via Carpatia.
The international conference about the further cooperation in the corridor development and the decision about the route of the corridor, organized yesterday in Warsaw. The organizator was the minister of infrastructure Andrzej Adamczyk. Apart from him, the ministers of infrastructure of the countries, which are related with Via Carpatia(Hungary, Ukraine, Slovakia, Chech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and Turkey; Greek minister didn't turn up - my note) also came here.

There were as well: the Marszałek of the Sejm Marek Kuchciński, vice-minister of development Jerzy Kwieciński, vice-ministers of infrastructure Jerzy Szmit and Piotr Stomma, the MPs of the European Parliament - Edward Czesak, Tomasz Poręba and Kosma Złotowski, and the representatives of the road and rail development sector companies, directors of the road construction companies, and transporting companies.

Andrzej Adamczyk said while opening the conference:

Quote:
Via Carpatia is a way of the development of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe. Our cooperation allows us to build a communication backbone, whereby the countries that are involved in the project could develop. This initiative is part of a process of progressive economic and territorial cohesion of the European Union.
He added later:

Quote:
Transport corridor Via Carpatia is an opportunity for the successful development of respect for the interests of individual countries participating in the project. I am convinced that Via Carpatia will serve as a lever for economic development of the region and the European Union
(...)

Adamczyk also told that at that year the 10. anniversary of the Łańcut Declaration is celebrated. It was initiated by ex-President Lech Kaczyński. The Declaration started the efforts headed to create that very important connection for the countries of the Central and Southern Europe.

On 27 October 2006 an international conference that was organized on the will of Poland was held in Łańcut(20 km east of Rzeszów), where the ministers of transport of: Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary, were present. At the conference officially the planned corridor was created that passed through these countries.

In 2010 the next conference passed, at which the document that created the Via Carpatia project, was signed. Apart from Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania and Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece also participated and signed the document.

Yesterday the representatives of the countries that participated in 2010 + Ukraine and Turkey signed the Declaration about the continuation of further cooperation of the development of the corridor and the actualization of its route.

Its target was the acception of the high importance of the corridor and the inscription of the corridor at the whole length to TEN-T(Trans-European Transport Networks) at the next actualization. It also needs financing from the EU as for now. The declaration is also the proof of the priority of the realization of the investment that is included in Via Carpatia in the regional investment programs. The strengthening of cooperation between the countries, through which the corridor goes will help facilitate the receiving funds from EU budget, of those money support for the CEF(Connecting Europe Facility) program. An important element of the Declaration is the signing of it by Ukraine and Turkey and the opening of the initiative on other countries, of those non-EU ones. That would allow to strengthen the cooperation as part of the eastern partnership.

In Poland Via Carpatia goes through: S61; DK8 and S19(Budzisko-Suwałki-Białystok-Barwinek).

The majority of the Via Carpatia in Poland is already included in the TEN-T. The exception is Augustów-Korycin, which was not included by the European Commission to TEN-T because of the environmental issues
Source: GDDKiA
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Old March 4th, 2016, 01:35 PM   #15312
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A contract has been signed today with Strabag:

A1: Częstochowa-South – Woźniki 16.7km (March 2016 to June 2019) – project – map

It was the remaining contract on A1 between Częstochowa-North and Pyrzowice.
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Old March 4th, 2016, 07:33 PM   #15313
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Accidents - Fatalities - Wounded

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Old March 5th, 2016, 02:25 PM   #15314
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That's what we want to see on a regular basics
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Old March 5th, 2016, 02:33 PM   #15315
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You are guaranteed to see it as long as motorway construction continues. Long distance high speed single carriageway roads kill people on a large scale ( high speed head on collisions) and those stats improve the second you replace them with motorways.
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Old March 5th, 2016, 02:45 PM   #15316
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Yes, a similar trend was observed in Spain, when they opened a massive amount of autovías in the late 1990s and beyond the fatality rate went from one of the worst to one of the best in Europe.
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Old March 5th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #15317
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Quote:
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Yes, a similar trend was observed in Spain, when they opened a massive amount of autovías in the late 1990s and beyond the fatality rate went from one of the worst to one of the best in Europe.
Ireland observed similar "phenomenon" more recently when they expanded their network in the 2000s.

So Polish figures will go down as the motorway network grows. But then you reach level where safety in cities (especially the deadly collisions with pedestrians) start playing larger role in lower overall number of deaths.
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Old March 5th, 2016, 05:54 PM   #15318
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Quote:
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Accidents - Fatalities - Wounded

Still, Poland is on the TOP of EU road fatalities rates .
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
You are guaranteed to see it as long as motorway construction continues. Long distance high speed single carriageway roads kill people on a large scale ( high speed head on collisions) and those stats improve the second you replace them with motorways.
Well, many coutries have understood this for more than 50 years now, I'm glad that this kind of "approach" will be taken more systematically and seriously into account in Poland too .
After that, next step will be to install widely radars, so security will improve even more, like 30 years ago in...
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Yes, a similar trend was observed in Spain, when they opened a massive amount of autovías in the late 1990s and beyond the fatality rate went from one of the worst to one of the best in Europe.
What a shame that Poland did wait so long before starting to build its motorways/expressways network, even when they had the EU money for it for over a decade
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Old March 5th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #15319
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Yes, a similar trend was observed in Spain, when they opened a massive amount of autovías in the late 1990s and beyond the fatality rate went from one of the worst to one of the best in Europe.
Wasn't it also combined with a lot more enforcement? I remember visiting Spain in the early 1990's and drink driving was absolutely common along with rampant breaking of road rules. I even remember one pub owner (who was drunk) getting into his car at the end of the night - we couldn't really walk straight and neither could he, yet it was quite accepted to do what he did.

These days, not a chance.
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Old March 5th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #15320
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Still, Poland is on the TOP of EU road fatalities rates .
False.

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What a shame that Poland did wait so long before starting to build its motorways/expressways network, even when they had the EU money for it for over a decade
You seriously claim Poland had access to any significant (in the context of infrastructure investments) EU funds in 1998, a decade before we started serious construction on our road network? Is that a joke, or are you seriously this misinformed? First significant EU funding came to Poland in 2004-2006 perspective. Those funds were nowhere near what we got in 2007-2013.
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