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Old November 11th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #16681
flusispieler
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[...] so do they also call Kaliningrad Königsberg then?
Speaking from my experience.
'Königsberg' is used for the historic city (until WWII).
A typical example would be when talking about heritage. You'd say your grandparents are from Königsberg instead of Kaliningrad.

On the other hand the modern city is usually referred to as Kaliningrad.

This differs from many other formerly German cities which are usually still called by their German names (and many Germans probably don't even know the Polish/International names). Examples being Danzig/Gdansk, Breslau/Wroclaw or Stettin/Szczecin.
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Old November 11th, 2017, 11:21 PM   #16682
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An interesting case among those names is Piła (Polish) - Schneidemühl (German). The Polish name means "a saw" (die Säge in German), the German one "a cutting mill", both of which seem to refer to a water- or (less likely) wind-powered sawmill.

Many are translated phonetically, or, at least, are literal translations but also sound quite similarly. Here, the name sounds totally different, has even different literal meanings, but in general, the meaning is the same.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 02:24 AM   #16683
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Thinking of Prague... this sign is everywhere there...
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Old November 12th, 2017, 09:19 AM   #16684
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Normally road maps always use the original city names - in the language used in the specific city - and not the names from the languages of the country where the map was issued.

This way:
- even if you buy a foreign map, you have no problem reading it,
- the names on the map are compliant with the names on road signs.

Displaying the names on Google Maps only in the language dependent on the language version of Google Maps which is currently opened by the user is actually quite weird and may cause problems.

Big differences in the names are especially in Hungarian. They have totally different names for many cities. Probably having something to do with the past and the times when they belonged to Hungary or Austro-Hungary.

In Poland, we are quite liberal, and, for example, we don't call Kaliningrad Królewiec in Polish any more. Kaliningrad is just Kaliningrad nowadays. But I wonder what Germans do, because they use their old names for many Polish formerly-German cities - so do they also call Kaliningrad Königsberg then?

On the other hand, some towns in Germany especially close to the Polish border have Polish names, like Bautzen - Budziszyn, czy Cottbus - Chociebuż (there are also some with much bigger differences between the Polish and the German name) and those names exist and are still considered correct in Polish (unlike Królewiec)... Another thing is that Poles usually use the German names for the German cities in practice, often not even knowing the Polish one. You will for sure find many Poles in Aachen calling this city just Aachen and not even knowing it's called Akwizgran in Polish even though they live there. Unlike it is in the east, for which Poles usually use the Polish names.
my favourite one is Ratyzbona for Regensburg which seems super weird to me.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #16685
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Originally Posted by flusispieler View Post
This differs from many other formerly German cities which are usually still called by their German names (and many Germans probably don't even know the Polish/International names). Examples being Danzig/Gdansk, Breslau/Wroclaw or Stettin/Szczecin.
I know the Polish names of the cities mentioned but I have no idea how to pronounce them. For this reason, I only use the German name when talking. Which is very rare though...
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #16686
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my favourite one is Ratyzbona for Regensburg which seems super weird to me.
There is nothing particularly "super weird" about this name.

As some other Polish names of German cities, it is derived from the ancien Celtic Radasbona, through its Latin version Ratisbona. One should keep in mind that in the medieval era Latin was the main language used in writing in Poland. The cities in question were important cultural centres exerting influence eastwards, hence their Latin naming tradition here.

The same pattern applies, e.g. to Akwizgran (Aachen), Moguncja (Mainz), Kolonia (Koeln) ...

True, even some Poles are unaware that these Polish/Latin versions exist. Which is a pity, IMO. But, interestingly enough, no-one in Poland seems to have any problem with Monachium (Muenchen).
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Old November 12th, 2017, 12:03 PM   #16687
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With Kolonia (Köln) as well, although here, the name follows the Latin origin also in English (Cologne).

Concerning Munich, maybe it's thanks to the Bayern Munich. People hear all the time "Bayern Monachium" on the sports news, so they get used to.

By the way, the name of Milan in Polish is Mediolan. And talking about their football clubs, I always hear on the Polish sports news A.C. Milan, but Inter Mediolan. Don't ask why.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #16688
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S11 - section conecting S8 with Dk11 north of Kępno. It looks like it will be completed ahead of schedule (deadline is August 2018).



















Source and more photos:
http://www.s11-obwodnicakepna.pl/zdjecia-lotnicze
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Old November 12th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #16689
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S8 Warsaw - Radzymin. There is a chance that the road will be opened before Christmas, ...





...but outside of the main carriageways, it is still far from being completed:







photos by psul: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=6743
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Old November 12th, 2017, 08:20 PM   #16690
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It's interesting that they use cable barriers on S8. I'm not aware of any other country using them on high-volume motorways. They are typically installed in rural areas to reduce cost and a number of countries don't use them at all.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #16691
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
But I wonder what Germans do, because they use their old names for many Polish formerly-German cities - so do they also call Kaliningrad Königsberg then?

On the other hand, some towns in Germany especially close to the Polish border have Polish names, like Bautzen - Budziszyn, czy Cottbus - Chociebuż
Those names sound polish as they derive from the minority called Sorben, a people with slawic roots living near the polish border. It was back in the GDR, when the Sorben got back their language and names for cities.

Coming to Kaliningrad most of the germans would called it like that, as Königsberg is far away in history and geographically. Bigger polish cities like Wroclaw or Poznan will be used as Breslau or Posen in german. But small cities like Gorzow, no one uses Landsberg anymore. As already said, it depends on how different the polish/german names are and how important the town is. BTW do you say Norynberga or Nürnberg in Poland?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 10:14 PM   #16692
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There are also a lot of exonyms for foreign towns and cities that are hardly ever mentioned in the media or daily conversation. These typically become disused over time.

For example, how well known is Ankona (the Italian city of Ancona) in Poland?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 10:33 PM   #16693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
BTW do you say Norynberga or Nürnberg in Poland?
Norymberga
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
For example, how well known is Ankona (the Italian city of Ancona) in Poland?
I know Ancona, but think that 90% poles have no idea where is it, especiall when you find out that the most of poles think that Madrid (Madryt) or Barcelona are cities in Italy...
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Old November 12th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #16694
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In case the city has a name written in a cyrylic alphabet the latin transcription will be provided.
Why the hell would they do that? To create monstrosity comparable to Ukrainian Zhezhiv (or something like that) discussed recently Which transliteration would they choose Polish or through ignorance English? Will we have sign for Chmielnicki in Ukrainian Хмельницький translated again using Polish Chmelnickij or English version of Khmelnitskiy


Chmielnicki (Хмельницький Khmelnitskiy)
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:21 PM   #16695
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's interesting that they use cable barriers on S8. I'm not aware of any other country using them on high-volume motorways. They are typically installed in rural areas to reduce cost and a number of countries don't use them at all.
I wondered about the same thing thinking that these cables can't stop a fully loaded semi barreling down at 100 km/hour from crossing the median onto oncoming traffic. These cables look very flimsy. I think it's another copy of Scandinavian way of doing things - first the Norwegian gantries and now Swedish cables. They should have put up concrete blocks instead.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:39 PM   #16696
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For example, how well known is Ankona (the Italian city of Ancona) in Poland?
Well. both names sound the same, so it's not a good example...
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:42 PM   #16697
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
But small cities like Gorzow, no one uses Landsberg anymore. As already said, it depends on how different the polish/german names are and how important the town is. BTW do you say Norynberga or Nürnberg in Poland?
Well, Gorzów is a voivodeship capital, so I wouldn't call it a small town

And I believe, I have recently seen the name "Landsberg" somewhere on the German Internet. Maybe on a railway forum, where someone was reporting his train spotting trip to Poland.

We actually say Norymberga in Polish With "m", like Nuremberg in English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
I know Ancona, but think that 90% poles have no idea where is it, especiall when you find out that the most of poles think that Madrid (Madryt) or Barcelona are cities in Italy...
I have heard this name before, but it's not like I know the city and where it is located

And the pronunciation is the same whether you spell it Ancona or Ankona. So it really makes no much difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There are also a lot of exonyms for foreign towns and cities that are hardly ever mentioned in the media or daily conversation. These typically become disused over time.
And this way you get Poles living in Aachen and not knowing this city is called Akwizgran in Polish

The city is important from historic point of view, but nowadays, nothing very important from the international point of view happens there, so the name rarely appears on the media in Poland.

Or, I think I have heard someone Polish (who doesn't speak French, of course) pronouncing Mulhouse as if it was in English. And its Polish name - Miluza - reflects quite exactly the correct French pronunciation

Interesting is Istanbul. In Polish - Stambuł. "I" disappears, "n" gets replaced with "m" (similarly as in case of Nuremberg).

Why are they gonna use Latin transcriptions of Ukrainian/Belarussian/Russian names? Because not many people in Poland can read Russian alphabet (I can because I had 2 years of Russian course in primary school, but not everyone was so lucky especially among the younger generations, many of the older people who have learnt Russian at school but never used it later have forgotten it too). And even less people can do it in the western Europe - those who can potentially want to go to Ukraine/Belarus/Russia through Poland. Names in Cyrylic would be useless for them, the Polish names - for those coming from the West - will be also kind of useless because they are sometimes different from the English or international ones, or use different spelling (see Rzeszów vs. Zheshuf).
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:50 PM   #16698
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Why are they gonna use Latin transcriptions of Ukrainian/Belarussian/Russian names? Because not many people in Poland can read Russian alphabet
Then it would be a good occasion to learn this alphabet. So that if you find yourself in Ukraine with signage to Львів, you won't be lost.

Quote:
(I can because I had 2 years of Russian course in primary school, but not everyone was so lucky especially among the younger generations, many of the older people who have learnt Russian at school but never used it later have forgotten it too).
I learnt the Cyrillic alphabet during a one-day trip to Lviv by trying to decipher various signboards. It was possible because Polish and Ukrainian languages are similar. But a non-Slav wouldn't manage to learn it that fast.

Quote:
And even less people can do it in the western Europe - those who can potentially want to go to Ukraine/Belarus/Russia through Poland. Names in Cyrylic would be useless for them, the Polish names - for those coming from the West - will be also kind of useless because they are sometimes different from the English or international ones, or use different spelling (see Rzeszów vs. Zheshuf).
Polish names aren't that different from "international" ones.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 12:08 AM   #16699
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Then it would be a good occasion to learn this alphabet. So that if you find yourself in Ukraine with signage to Львів, you won't be lost.
Yeah, but while it's easy to learn the original names written in Latin in such a way, because they are composed of the letters which are already known to you, it's not so easy to learn a new alphabet in such a way. Especially when you have to be focused on driving and the signs shouldn't distract you.

When you find yourself in Ukraine, their road signs are usually in both alphabets, so this is not such a problem.

And, anyway, you don't have to guess which version of transcription of the Cyrylic names to Latin alphabet will be used because this system is currently used as the only one on the Polish signs directing to cities in Ukraine/Belarus/Russia Lwów/Lviv is spelled as L'viv on the signs, for example.

Quote:
I learnt the Cyrillic alphabet during a one-day trip to Lviv by trying to decipher various signboards. It was possible because Polish and Ukrainian languages are similar. But a non-Slav wouldn't manage to learn it that fast.
Congratulations When I was in Greece, deciphering the words in the Greek alphabet also wasn't a very big problem, because, once, it's a bit similar to Cyrylic (Cyrylic actually originated from the Greek alphabet), two, you usually know the Greek letters used as symbols in maths and physics.

But when I see, for example, the Arabic script, I have totally no idea what the specific letters represent. Same with the Thai one, for example.

Quote:
Polish names aren't that different from "international" ones.
Well, it makes some sense, but still some differences may appear and then it's, at least, a difficulty for the drivers.

But, as I already said, most likely the current standard will be used, that is, the Polish transliteration from Ukrainian (see here: https://sjp.pwn.pl/zasady/318-78-A-T...go;629711.html), which should be easily understood.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 12:49 AM   #16700
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Names in Cyrylic would be useless for them, the Polish names - for those coming from the West - will be also kind of useless because they are sometimes different from the English or international ones, or use different spelling (see Rzeszów vs. Zheshuf).
But do those western nations give a ship to guide eastern travellers or you need to use their language? Why use English as Brexitiers clearly proved where they have Europe in mind. Is it so hard to follow A4 route to border with signs Lwów (Львів) instead of Lviv? To most EU nations English transliterations from cyrilic are the same dumb as Polish so why to use English one or why to use it at all?
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