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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #16721
bleetz
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Good stuff
I assume the map shows the completed network? Do you know what the total length of motorways and expressways will be once that is achieved?
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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:41 PM   #16722
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cca. 7k km
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Old November 24th, 2017, 06:11 PM   #16723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleetz View Post
Are there any plans to upgrade DK16 between Mragowo and Elk? Would be a cool little connection for the Baltics (not that it's a priority for Poland ).
As you say, S16 is not a priority but will be one heck of a scenic drive once it is built. Can't wait myself.

Currently, S16 is in the realm of long-term plans:
- link to a map, where blue represents plans to 2025, red is beyond 2025 and grey is 'we'll get there one day, honest'
- link to a report, see for example page 34


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Old November 24th, 2017, 10:43 PM   #16724
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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post

cca. 7k km
Pretty good. How many of each?
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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:04 PM   #16725
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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #16726
bleetz
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Good stuff, thanks

I expected a bit more than ~2000 km. of motorways as the end result but very impressive nonetheless. I guess most Polish expressways meet motorway standards and can be fairly easily converted to motorways if the need arises?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:32 AM   #16727
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Good stuff, thanks

I expected a bit more than ~2000 km. of motorways as the end result but very impressive nonetheless. I guess most Polish expressways meet motorway standards and can be fairly easily converted to motorways if the need arises?
Yes, it's just a legislative formality.

The question that I have is how long Poland can maintain such a large toll-free expressway network without road taxes, higher fuel taxes or road tolls.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:34 AM   #16728
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How much money is currently brought in with taxes annually and how much is spent on (road) infrastructure annually in Poland?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:21 PM   #16729
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I guess most Polish expressways meet motorway standards and can be fairly easily converted to motorways if the need arises?
No, they doesn`t. Class S roads are too narrow, too winding, and too often there are road junctions in comparison to the motorway standard.

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Yes, it's just a legislative formality.
No it isn`t! There is no question of the law. This is a matter of standard and parameters!
Simply motorways have much higher parameters than expressways. This is clearly visible.
And the fact that in Poland the road no. 4 is designated as the A4 motorway, although it has a standard lower than the express road, it only shows what is the brothel in polish regulations and signage.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 08:31 PM   #16730
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I think the vast majority of drivers in Europe would see the S-roads like any other motorway. These design differences are relatively small and maybe overkill for A-roads. I mean, mandatory distance between exits to make it an A-road is just an unnecessary complication of the design of a motorway. Of course you want to avoid 3 exits within 1 kilometer (I-90 in Chicago ) but who cares if there is an occasional occurrance of two exits within 3 kms?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 08:32 PM   #16731
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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
No, they doesn`t. Class S roads are too narrow, too winding, and too often there are road junctions in comparison to the motorway standard.

No it isn`t! There is no question of the law. This is a matter of standard and parameters!
Simply motorways have much higher parameters than expressways. This is clearly visible.
It depends on how you define a "motorway standard". Since we are on an international forum - then yes, Polish "S" roads do meet motorway standards.

Because if you say that these roads are "too narrow, too winding, and too often there are road junctions" then you could say the same about a whole lot of motorways in countries such as Italy and Germany.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I mean, mandatory distance between exits to make it an A-road is just an unnecessary complication of the design of a motorway.
This is a major flaw of Polish "A" roads - this rule often causes "A" roads to have too little junctions or have the junctions located in bad places.

Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/50.1052/21.6173
Instead of building two junctions (on DW986 and DW987, one for each town) they built one junction on a minor road somewhere in between. As a result none of the towns has a good connection with A4.

Another example, this time from "S" road:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.3608/16.9472
Instead locating junction Prusice on one of two decent roads connecting Prusice with Oborniki Śląskie, they put it on this road leading nowhere. Because otherwise it would be too close to Krościna junction...

Last edited by Kemo; November 25th, 2017 at 08:41 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #16732
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No, they doesn`t. Class S roads are too narrow, too winding, and too often there are road junctions in comparison to the motorway standard.
Where are there level junctions on signed S roads?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:27 PM   #16733
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Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
It depends on how you define a "motorway standard". Since we are on an international forum - then yes, Polish "S" roads do meet motorway standards.
Motorway standard, in force in poland, is defined in polish regulations/law, so it`s not me, just the law. In this way, polish expressways dot not meet motorway standard accordiing to polish regulations/law. In poland, polish law applies. It is just so simple!

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Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Because if you say that these roads are "too narrow, too winding, and too often there are road junctions" then you could say the same about a whole lot of motorways in countries such as Italy and Germany.
I don`t care about Italy or Germany. They have its own regulations regarding roads. We talk about poland and domestic regulations. So, your examples or explanations are wrong at all and do not apply.

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Where are there level junctions on signed S roads?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:29 PM   #16734
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There is only one, but soon a contract will be signed for upgrading this section to real motorway standard:
https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.46123...7i13312!8i6656

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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
Motorway standard, in force in poland, is defined in polish regulations/law, so it`s not me, just the law. In this way, polish expressways dot not meet motorway standard accordiing to polish regulations/law. In poland, polish law applies. It is just so simple!
Nope, Polish regulations define parameters of "autostrada" and "droga ekspresowa". So you can say that "droga ekspresowa" doesn't meet the "autostrada" standard. But it has nothing to do with motorway standard.
Both types of roads meet the motorway standard, because a "motorway" is a
Quote:
major arterial divided highway that features two or more traffic lanes in each direction, with opposing traffic separated by a median strip; elimination of grade crossings; controlled entries and exits; and advanced designs eliminating steep grades, sharp curves, and other hazards and inconveniences to driving
Source: https://www.britannica.com/technology/expressway-road

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I don`t care about Italy or Germany. They have its own regulations regarding roads. We talk about poland and domestic regulations. So, your examples or explanations are wrong at all and do not apply.
Again, Italy has regulations for "autostrada" and "superstrada" but it has nothing to do with motorway standard.

Let's be precise with our wording and be careful when translating local road named to English.

Last edited by Kemo; November 25th, 2017 at 09:38 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #16735
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You are stubborn

All parameters of motorways together, stated in regulations, give us motorway standard. So parameters have a lot to do with motorway standard.

Ok, you can do not agree with the regulations, what I fully understand, but they are in force.

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Let's be precise with our wording and be careful when translating local road named to English.
I do not quite understand what you mean?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #16736
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As far as I know, in English (the language we are using here) words such as "motorway", "expressway" or "freeway" are synonyms and I quoted their definition above.

So we shouldn't say that "S" roads are "expressways" and don't meet "motorway" standards, because in English language an expressway is the exact same thing as a motorway.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #16737
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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
Motorway standard, in force in poland, is defined in polish regulations/law, so it`s not me, just the law. In this way, polish expressways dot not meet motorway standard accordiing to polish regulations/law. In poland, polish law applies. It is just so simple!
No, it's not so simple. We are just discussing a possibility of changing this law and lowering the Polish motorway standards to the expressway standards and signing all the expressways as motorways.

While talking about motorway standards, we talk about western-European or world standards, not about the inventions of the Polish politicians.

Our expressways fulfill the European motorway standards, and there is no reason for us to have them much stricter here in Poland.

You are saying that we can't sign our expressways as motorways without changing the law (because they don't fulfill our current legal standards for a motorway), but it's so obvious that it's not worth mentioning at all.

Using the Polish SSC section slang, you are a good example of something we call there "niedasizm" ("cannot"-ness). "Niedasię". "You can't do it". No. You can. It's as simple as changing the law.

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Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
As far as I know, in English (the language we are using here) words such as "motorway", "expressway" or "freeway" are synonyms and I quoted their definition above.

So we shouldn't say that "S" roads are "expressways" and don't meet "motorway" standards, because in English language an expressway is the exact same thing as a motorway.
Isn't it so that they are not very strict and they can mean very different things in different English-speaking countries?

Not to mention the world "highway", to which our "autostrada" often is translated but it can mean practically any road designed for heavy long-distance traffic.
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Last edited by Kpc21; November 25th, 2017 at 10:53 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:13 PM   #16738
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
While talking about motorway standards, we talk about western-European or world standards

Our expressways fulfill the European motorway standards, and there is no reason for us to have them much stricter here in Poland.
Dude, there is no such thing like a european or world motorway standard

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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Using the Polish SSC section slang, you are a good example of something we call there "niedasizm" ("cannot"-ness). "Niedasię". "You can't do it". No. You can. It's as simple as changing the law.
**** man, I didn`t say anything relating to changing law or/and regulation So do not write that I'm saying something can not be done
I didn`t stat anything like this. I just gave what is the current legal status and so much, no more.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:30 PM   #16739
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Ok, so it just had to be a misunderstanding

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Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
Dude, there is no such thing like a european or world motorway standard
It depends on how you define a standard Maybe there is no European or world standard (or norm) for a motorway in the legal or industrial sense, as a set of officially written guidelines the producers or designers should follow (although it's not obligatory) to ensure they comply with the law or for compatibility with other products.

But we talk about standards in a more colloquial sense. Our expressways are of comparable or even higher quality than the motorways in most European countries. This is why it could be a good idea to change the signage of most Polish expressways into motorways. Obviously it demands changing the law. We could be happy that we have many motorways, Poles would have less reasons for complaining about the low quality of the Polish roads and on a small number of motorways, we would look better in the statistics, Google Maps would stop displaying our current expressways as minor category roads.
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Old November 26th, 2017, 04:19 AM   #16740
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Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought when you said "road junction" you meant level road junction, but I see now you meant the junctions on S roads are too close to each other.
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