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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:21 PM   #81
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I'll be further trying to convince you 177 000 000 € is proper price during financial crisis and economic problems within European Union. To do it, I'm gonna give you another example comparing construction's cost of SM in Wrocław with other stadium constructing in Germany:
Rhein-Neckar Arena in Sinsheim, Germany (30 000): Cost - 60 000 000 €
Stadion Miejski in Wrocław, Poland (44 000): Cost - 177 000 000 €
And still are you claiming this price is truly good?
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post
inflation?

In today's times and climate 177 million/ $231 million is a good price for a 44,000 seater being built in Europe.
If you think it's a good price, then don't even ask how much Poznan will pay for two stands and roof...
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Old December 20th, 2008, 08:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
I'll be further trying to convince you 177 000 000 € is proper price during financial crisis and economic problems within European Union. To do it, I'm gonna give you another example comparing construction's cost of SM in Wrocław with other stadium constructing in Germany:
Rhein-Neckar Arena in Sinsheim, Germany (30 000): Cost - 60 000 000 €
Stadion Miejski in Wrocław, Poland (44 000): Cost - 177 000 000 €
And still are you claiming this price is truly good?
Is Wroclaw and Poland gettin fooled or I am missing something?
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Old December 21st, 2008, 12:27 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
I'll be further trying to convince you 177 000 000 € is proper price during financial crisis and economic problems within European Union. To do it, I'm gonna give you another example comparing construction's cost of SM in Wrocław with other stadium constructing in Germany:
Rhein-Neckar Arena in Sinsheim, Germany (30 000): Cost - 60 000 000 €
Stadion Miejski in Wrocław, Poland (44 000): Cost - 177 000 000 €
And still are you claiming this price is truly good?
Its just my opinion and Im certainly not an expert.
Is the Rhein stadium hosting Euro matches and does it meet alf the UEFA requirements for a stadium in terms of spaces, technology? There can be a big difference between a UEFA compliant stadium and an ordinary stadium. The quality of materials and the complexity of the design can also play a role.


E.g. in South Africa we just completed a 40,000 seater for $33m but our 40,000 seater world cup stadia cost just over $120m, with a 44,000 seater in PE costing $220m.

I assume construction costs are lower in Poland than the UK but e.g. Emirates a well run project cost $600m for a 60,000 seater and you say Polish workers aren't cheap? $231m is a good price in the time frame that they optimistically predict along with the facade and roof which I assume are subcontracted to specialists.

$231m seems to be the same price as the PE World Cup stadium for 2010, which is a good price and the right price. I don't see $231m being excessive and it would be perfectly fine if the cost moved closer to $300m given the time frames, and the speed at which the subcontracts need to be put out to tender and be approved.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 12:29 AM   #85
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oh and I think Michal would be the best person to ask about the cost and time frame given his knowledge of this project, stadia in general and knowledge of the country
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Old December 21st, 2008, 01:00 AM   #86
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Some stadiums have more suites, so its more expensive than a stadium with the same capacity and roof.

+ ofcourse the surrounding. Carparking under the stadium? Big squares?
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Old December 21st, 2008, 01:25 AM   #87
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Stadia Costs: 2010 FIFA World Cup

New:

Green Point Stadium $500 million 69,000
Moses Mabhida Stadium $360 million 70,000
Mbombela Stadium $110 million 46,000
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium $210 million 48,000
Peter Mokaba Stadium $130 million 45,000
Soccer City $280 million 94,700

Existing:


Free State Stadium, New Grand Stand $30 million 48,000
Royal Bafokeng, Additional Grand Stand Tier and roof,$11 million 42,000
Ellis Park, Additional North Tier with roof and parking structure, 62,000 $25 million
Loftus Versfeld, New Roof on eastern pavillion, 49,000 $13 million

Total cost: $1,623 million


Average cost per new stadium: $265 million
Average cost per stadium: $162.3 million

Last edited by Mo Rush; December 21st, 2008 at 01:31 AM.
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 04:04 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUSKER View Post
That

random question, are the stands just being built into the dirt because that what it looks like to me
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Old December 24th, 2008, 04:25 PM   #89
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Cost of stadium in Poland that are under construction or planned.

Warsaw National Stadium (Euro 2012 ) (56k ) - est. 300-400 milion euro ( Elite class )
Warsaw Legia Stadium ( 32k ) - 113 milion euro ( Elite class )
Poznan City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 45 k ) - 150 milion euro ( Elite class )
Gdansk City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 44k ) - est. 170-200 milion euro ( Elite class )
Wroclaw City Stadium (Euro 2012) (44k ) - 180 milion euro ( Elite class )
Krakow City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 33k ) - 113 milion euro ( probably Elite class )
Chorzow Stadion Slaski (Euro 2012) (55k) - unknown ( stadium is being rebuilt for almost 10 years )
Bialystok City stadium (22,5k) - est. 50 milion euro ( class 3 stadium )
Zabrze ( 30k ) - est. 50 milion euro ( class 3 stadium )
Lubin ( 16k ) - 30 milion euro
Torun Speedway stadium (15k) - 25 milion euro

Sorry if I missed something.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #90
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Compararison of construction prices in the EU and some other countries for 2007 by Eurostat. Construction in Poland does seem rather expensive considering its level of economic development.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:37 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Luke View Post
Cost of stadium in Poland that are under construction or planned.

Warsaw National Stadium (Euro 2012 ) (56k ) - est. 300-400 milion euro ( Elite class )
Warsaw Legia Stadium ( 32k ) - 113 milion euro ( Elite class )
Poznan City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 45 k ) - 150 milion euro ( Elite class )
Gdansk City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 44k ) - est. 170-200 milion euro ( Elite class )
Wroclaw City Stadium (Euro 2012) (44k ) - 180 milion euro ( Elite class )
Krakow City Stadium (Euro 2012) ( 33k ) - 113 milion euro ( probably Elite class )
Chorzow Stadion Slaski (Euro 2012) (55k) - unknown ( stadium is being rebuilt for almost 10 years )
Bialystok City stadium (22,5k) - est. 50 milion euro ( class 3 stadium )
Zabrze ( 30k ) - est. 50 milion euro ( class 3 stadium )
Lubin ( 16k ) - 30 milion euro
Torun Speedway stadium (15k) - 25 milion euro

Sorry if I missed something.
That's wrong - it will be Elite class + 50€ is a rough estimate (and a wishful thinking of the city council).
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:05 AM   #92
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I haven't found any information about stadium in Zabrze being an Elite class.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post
inflation?

In today's times and climate 177 million/ $231 million is a good price for a 44,000 seater being built in Europe.
So what would be a good price in today's economic slump?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loranga View Post
So what would be a good price in today's economic slump?
Anything under $450 million would certainly be a very good price for a 44,000 seater being built in Europe.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:30 AM   #95
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Stadium costs are very hard to compare. Because there are so many factors and aspects that differ from country to country, from city to city and from ground to ground.
For example the new Tivoli here in Aachen with a capacity of 32.900 (when all seater 27.500) officially cost 50 million €. But it's a fairly simple stadium, nothing all too fancy. Actually the stadium itself is designed rather simple and cheap.
But now you need to consider that it's being constructed in a place that officially has the highest earthquake risk category in Germany (category 3) , the opposite side of the street would have been one category lower (2). This makes the construction of the stadium quite a bit more expensive, the entire foundation for the stadium had to be stiffened out. Plus the soil of the ground is very bad, so they had to ram thousands of pillars about 20m into the ground for the entire stadium to stand on.
So even the parkinghouse for 1200 VIP cars on this site cost another 11 mio€, which amazingly is more than 1/5th of the stadium cost... impresive, huh?
Building that stadium on the other side of the street, just because of the lower legal regulations, would theoretically have saved several million of Euros. Out of town one would have saved the cost for all the necessary measures to keep the noise down, but that of course in turn would have made it necessary to create much more parking space for the visitors.

Another major aspect in this example is, that just shortly after the contract was signed, the prices for steel went up rapidly. So building the same stadium just 3 or 4 month later would have increased the stadiumcost for the club massively. The high steel prices are actually a major reason why the Bayarena renewal is so expensive, even tough they decided not to have the gigantic Bayercross in the roof, that was originally planned.
Several other stadia in germany have also been rebuilt or renewed while still being used at the same time for League matches, which of course also has an effect on the overall cost.
So as you see, you really need to look at so much more aspects than just size and capacity to compare stadium prices somewhat reasonably.

Last edited by Alemanniafan; February 12th, 2009 at 02:45 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:11 AM   #96
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I was referring to a FIFA compliant stadium.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:07 AM   #97
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@ Mo Rush the new Tivoli is Fifa compliant with 27.500 seats.

Of course a stadium with 40.000 seats would be much more expensive than the new smaller stadium in aachen, but here I know some of the details. And what I was trying to explain with this example is that it doesn't make much sense to just look at the capacity.
Gladbach built a very basic FiFa compliant stadium with 44.000 seats If I recall that number correctly. It was built pretty cheap for "just" 86.9 Mio € (76.7 mio for the stadium itself , 10.2 mio for the ground) a few years ago, I think it was finished in 2004 or 2005. But that doesn't help much, because in another location it might be much more expensive. And meanwhile the steal prices have gone up etc. etc. etc. The current renewal of the Bayarena in Leverkusen for example on the other hand costs 70 mio€ and that stadium just increases the capacity from 22.500 to 30.000 spectators not even an additional 10.000 basically. So you see, it doesn't help much in trying to compare, because the modernisation and increase in size of less than 10000 spectators in leverkusen cost just about 6.7 mio€ less than the construction of the entire stadium in Gladbach itself.
The Stadium in Gadbach, Borussiapark (out of town by the freeway) is the cheapest one I know of with it's cost of 86.9 mio€ that has been built in the last years here in Germany. I don't think you could build a stadium for 44.000 any cheaper or more basic than that. But as I said this example is allready "outdated" and it doesn't help to compare with a stadium in that location here in Aachen for example simply because the ground is very different. Basically the same stadium built in town or on a ground that needs a different more costly foundation, or right now could easily be much more expensive than 87 mio€.

>>here<< are some more informations about the stadium in Gladbach, but sadly they're only in german. But a google translation might help you understand it of course.

Last edited by Alemanniafan; February 12th, 2009 at 04:45 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:47 AM   #98
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of course there are many factors, labour, construction costs, procurements rules etc.
I was just providing a rough estimate for a good price in the EU.

Comparisons can certainly be made given the environment in a certain country.

e.g. the rule of doubles usually applies between South Africa and the UK
A 70,000 seater football stadium in SA would cost around $450 mill, where as in the UK prob closer to $900 million.
Its not exact but provides a rough estimate.

In other cases it doesnt work, e.g. wembley stadium, the might mess up.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:57 AM   #99
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Well, if you want to get somewhat of an idea you can look at the Worldcup stadia in Germany and those mostly smaller ones that have been built since that. It should be easy to google up the costs and almost any german club with a rahther new stadium or that's building one has a nice informative website, where you can usualy also find the overal costs.
But as I said it most likely won't help you much, because there just is no simple solution to estimating stadium costs. That matter is just way to complex and much to individual for every stadium. There is a reason why so many stadiumplans have to be readjusted later on, because of exploding costs, you know. If it would be easier to guess and predict in advance that would surely not happen so often.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #100
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Not only do land, labor and construction costs factor into the overall price tag, so do the types of amenities--width of concourses, restrooms, concession/souvenir kiosks, corporate boxes, premium seating lounges, etc.--built into the stadium/arena, as well as building footprint and vertical circulation structures (ramps and stairwells). Part of the reason the Birds' Nest cost only about 325M EUR (425M USD) is not only because labor costs were relatively cheap, but also because the stadium was built without permanent concession stands.
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