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Old August 6th, 2013, 02:26 PM   #2141
cinxxx
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I have German plates, so it won't affect me
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Old August 6th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #2142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
I could see that the officers were only stopping Polish/Bulgarian/Romanian registered cars. Norwegian, Swedish, Dutch and German registered cars were waved right through.
One reason for stopping RO,BG cars: In these countries auto inspection is poor and let many wrecks through Control, usually the inspectors take bribes to let a wreck pass. There is a finnish auto inspection especially for russian cars/trucks at the finnish border.

I saw at least 15 RO, BG wrecks at the same parking along the road 313 outside Assens, DK. They were people probably working at a place selling vegitables. Entering DK from D does not offer many choices Only 3 roads I presume. E45 and 170/200 at Flensburg and road 11 at Tönder & the ferries Rödby-Puttgarden/Gedser-Rostock. The border at road 170/200 did not have any control at all when I entered/exited Germany, but borderpatrol is for some reason always present when crossing the same border by train.

The southernmost Swedish/norwegian border has many unguarded entries, so shady people can easily choose other nearby roads to Norway.



This is one option without border Control which I passed through in 1999.

Last edited by NordikNerd; August 6th, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #2143
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Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
The day I was there certainly didn't paint a very nice picture with certain nationalities being targeted at the border.
Why? If the risk analysis show that it is worth inspecting cars from certain countries, who should the Norwegian authorities vaste their resources by inspecting Swedes and Germans just for keeping some kind of a bold equality?

Another day they inspect their own citizens for smuggling meat and booze.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #2144
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tunnel safety

I've read that all Norwegian road tunnels have to comply with EU directives about tunnel safety by 2019.

Is there some more information about this? Why does an EU directive apply to Norway? Should really all tunnels comply, or only certain corridors? What is the projected cost? One of the demands of the directive is a second tube (be it a traffic tube or emergency tunnel). That would drive up the cost considerably in some cases, for example the Lærdal Tunnel, which does not have an emergency tube as far as I am aware.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #2145
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Why does an EU directive apply to Norway?
Norway and EU have signed the EEA agreement, and implementing certain directives is included in the agreement.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #2146
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I'd be surpised if Gudvangatunnelen complied to the directive.
Did they have any emergency exits there? I don't remember having seen any.

There are so many tunnels in Norway with no lights, carved in naked rock and with a single lane with meeting points. They are basically black holes, but they have so little traffic that it doesn't matter (like 3 cars a dayor so).

So I guess there will be a minimum AADT in order to havimg to comply to EU directive?

Tell me if I'm wrong.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 06:35 PM   #2147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
So I guess there will be a minimum AADT in order to havimg to comply to EU directive?
Right. A twin-tube tunnel is mandatory if the 15-year traffix corecast shows the AADT per lane exceeding 10000. For the other criteria, the AADT limit is 2000.

The AADT if the Lærdal tunnel is about 1000 per lane.

Anyway, the basic message of the directive is: "These measures have to be taken, but not if impossible or too expensive".

The text is available at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...39:0091:EN:PDF with a summary table close to the middle of the document.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #2148
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I stand corrected: Gudvangatunnelen does apparently comply to EU rules.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #2149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Entering DK from D does not offer many choices Only 3 roads I presume. E45 and 170/200 at Flensburg and road 11 at Tönder & the ferries Rödby-Puttgarden/Gedser-Rostock. The border at road 170/200 did not have any control at all when I entered/exited Germany, but borderpatrol is for some reason always present when crossing the same border by train.
Indeed there are many controls, especially at the E45.
There are several alternative entries to Denmark, but I don't want to give any tips to illegal border crossers.

Be careful. The Danish customs officers are sharp.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #2150
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Bygg.no published an article about it

http://www.bygg.no/2013/08/110436.0

They have to improve safety on 200 tunnels before 1/4/2019. Cost is 7 billion NOK or € 890 million.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #2151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
The southernmost Swedish/norwegian border has many unguarded entries, so shady people can easily choose other nearby roads to Norway.



This is one option without border Control which I passed through in 1999.
The fact that there are no custom station at the road side does not mean that the chance of getting caught is any smaller than on say the E6, you can in principle be checked at any border passing. Remember that the traffic is much higher on the E6, and many more checks are needed in order to get the same screening as on a road with less traffic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Right. A twin-tube tunnel is mandatory if the 15-year traffix corecast shows the AADT per lane exceeding 10000. For the other criteria, the AADT limit is 2000.

The AADT if the Lærdal tunnel is about 1000 per lane.

Anyway, the basic message of the directive is: "These measures have to be taken, but not if impossible or too expensive".

The text is available at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...39:0091:EN:PDF with a summary table close to the middle of the document.
For new tunnels the tunnel directive has to be followed, however, except that in Norway, emergency exits will only be needed above an AADT of 4000 for tunnels shorter than 10 km. For longer tunnels, the AADT limit of 2000 per lane applies as in the rest of the EU. There are btw discussions now whether Gudvangatunnelen adheres to some other parts of the directive. I assume that could issues with several other older tunnels as well.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #2152
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Glad to hear this. Do you have any idea how much Romanian "tourists" have cost us+been a nuisance the last few years? Sorry, but
Well, "There are criminals in Romania" certainly isn't a valid argument for targeting all cars with Eastern European registration plates at fixed checkpoints within Schengen.

I don't mean to start a general debate on free movement or Romanias EU-accession, it just seems in clear violation of Schengen rules to have routine checkpoints targeted at specific nationalities.

Since I was driving a Swedish-registered car and was waved straight through, I was merely curious if this is standard procedure at the border at Svinesund. I haven't seen it anywhere else and Norway is, after all, an associated Schengen member.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #2153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
Well, "There are criminals in Romania" certainly isn't a valid argument for targeting all cars with Eastern European registration plates at fixed checkpoints within Schengen.

I don't mean to start a general debate on free movement or Romanias EU-accession, it just seems in clear violation of Schengen rules to have routine checkpoints targeted at specific nationalities.

Since I was driving a Swedish-registered car and was waved straight through, I was merely curious if this is standard procedure at the border at Svinesund. I haven't seen it anywhere else and Norway is, after all, an associated Schengen member.
Please do not misunderstand what Schengen agreement is. It is about crossing borders without showing the passport only. It is not about customs-free border crossing. As Norway is not the member of the EU customs union, it has the full power to perform any customs inspection operation needed targeting whomever they want.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #2154
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I said in my earlier post that there was no serious injuries in the accident, in fact 10 people were classified as being seriously injured, but nobody is in critical condition. I think we were extremely lucky given the high number of people stuck in the tunnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Bygg.no published an article about it

http://www.bygg.no/2013/08/110436.0

They have to improve safety on 200 tunnels before 1/4/2019. Cost is 7 billion NOK or € 890 million.
It seems like only the current national and European roads are included in this number. In Norway, also the roads that have been recently down-classified from national to county roads are required to adhere to the same rules, although this is not really part of the EU directive. In total, there are 1060 county and national road tunnels in Norway, and also some municipal ones, but only 498 tunnels are longer than 500 m, covering a total length of 578 km.


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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #2155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Please do not misunderstand what Schengen agreement is. It is about crossing borders without showing the passport only. It is not about customs-free border crossing. As Norway is not the member of the EU customs union, it has the full power to perform any customs inspection operation needed targeting whomever they want.
Maybe this should be moved to the International Border Crossing-thread, but customs controls that are conducted routinely and targeted at specific nationalities (or, even worse, at certain ethnic groups as someone suggested a few posts back) is very much a Schengen related topic. Customs checks that become de-facto routine border checks have been an issue for a long time, just take a look how the EU reacted when Denmark planned for "increased customs checks".
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Old August 6th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #2156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
Well, "There are criminals in Romania" certainly isn't a valid argument for targeting all cars with Eastern European registration plates at fixed checkpoints within Schengen.

I don't mean to start a general debate on free movement or Romanias EU-accession, it just seems in clear violation of Schengen rules to have routine checkpoints targeted at specific nationalities.

Since I was driving a Swedish-registered car and was waved straight through, I was merely curious if this is standard procedure at the border at Svinesund. I haven't seen it anywhere else and Norway is, after all, an associated Schengen member.
I could not help myself, more Romanian than Norwegian nationals have been arrested for crime for profit (i.e. shoplifting, theft, burglary, pickpocketing, scams etc.) in Oslo so far this year: http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/08/06/n...itet/28541786/

Having said that, although I cannot say this for sure, I am not aware that the Norwegian custom officials make systematic screening based on nationality of the car. I assume that they usually make controls based on intelligence information, which could include the nationality of suspected vehicles, or take out a certain class of vehicles etc. And as you probably know, the level of control on the Norwegian-Swedish border is light years away from controlling all cars with Eastern European registration plates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
Maybe this should be moved to the International Border Crossing-thread, but customs controls that are conducted routinely and targeted at specific nationalities (or, even worse, at certain ethnic groups as someone suggested a few posts back) is very much a Schengen related topic. Customs checks that become de-facto routine border checks have been an issue for a long time, just take a look how the EU reacted when Denmark planned for "increased customs checks".
Denmark is unlike Norway part of the EU, so I am not sure if your example is relevant. In any case, and as already mentioned, there is no permanent customs control on the Norwegian-Swedish borders.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; August 6th, 2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #2157
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Will the Gudvangen tunnel be closed for a longer period?
There is no bypass by any means, at least not in the region.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #2158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Will the Gudvangen tunnel be closed for a longer period?
There is no bypass by any means, at least not in the region.
Minimum a week says vegevesen.no.

The fire department here in Norway have been honest about the situation and have stated that this accident could have been worse.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #2159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Will the Gudvangen tunnel be closed for a longer period?
There is no bypass by any means, at least not in the region.
There used to be a ferry connection between Lærdal and Gudvangen before the opening of the Lærdal tunnel, but as of now that service is mainly for tourists. (I'm not sure if they take cars at all.)

(EDIT: according to http://discoversognefjord.com/information/ they do. However I don't think the capacity is enough to handle all the E16 traffic, but maybe it helps a little anyway.)

The shortest and surely cheapest bypass between Oslo and Bergen is road 7 through Hardangervidda anyway.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 09:31 PM   #2160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
Maybe this should be moved to the International Border Crossing-thread, but customs controls that are conducted routinely and targeted at specific nationalities (or, even worse, at certain ethnic groups as someone suggested a few posts back) is very much a Schengen related topic.
Definitely they are not. Schengen really is not about customs procedures. The EU Customs Union is about that, but they are two different things.

There are even intra-country customs lines within the Schengen countries, like in Finland: The Åland islands are excluded from the EU Customs Union, and that is why the traffic between the islands and the mainland Finland is subject to the customs operations.

There are (at least) five overlapping areas in Europe relates to ease border crossings, each having their own purpose and rules:

- EU Customs Union
- EU VAT Area
- European Economical Area (EU+Island,Norway,Switzerland)
- Schengen Agreements
- Nordic Passport Union
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