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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #2301
Heico-M
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Quote:
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Where does this come from? The total system length of Swiss railroads is just 25 % higher than Norway's. Our lines are few, but long.
Yeah, sure.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 11:56 AM   #2302
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Widening of E6 south of Trondheim, 1.3 km long section:

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Old October 23rd, 2013, 12:38 PM   #2303
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1.3 km
Sometimes I wonder if the politicians choose to build such small pieces just to be able to cut more red tape.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 05:08 PM   #2304
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Quote:
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Widening of E6 south of Trondheim, 1.3 km long section:

How come they don't like building hard shoulders on new 4 lane Norwegian roads and 4 lane motorway? In Bergen, between Lagunen (a shopping centre) and the city centre, there is a nice older 4 lane road(built in the 90's?) which isn't a motorway but has nice hard shoulders most of the way.

Will the new government look into the issue of not building hard shoulders for future projects?
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 05:10 PM   #2305
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Quote:
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How come they don't like building hard shoulders on new 4 lane Norwegian roads and 4 lane motorway?
It's cheaper without.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:14 PM   #2306
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It's cheaper without.
So what has happened that now, they no longer want to pay the extra for the hard shoulder? For safety reasons, they should put them in.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:20 PM   #2307
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Quote:
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So what has happened that now, they no longer want to pay the extra for the hard shoulder? For safety reasons, they should put them in.
Cars are getting more reliable.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:21 PM   #2308
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So do nails and other debris on the road that cause flat tires.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:26 PM   #2309
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Even more stupid is the stone-curb there... Else you could use the soft shoulder in case of sudden breakdown.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:29 PM   #2310
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Cars are getting more reliable.
Do they? I'd say on the contrary modern cars have more problems, especially with all the electronic equipment.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #2311
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Quote:
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So what has happened that now, they no longer want to pay the extra for the hard shoulder? For safety reasons, they should put them in.
Theory: People have started to demand better infrastructure. The state is generally against using money on it and have therefore started to cut cost through various means so that each krone should result in more visible roads to stop the complaints.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #2312
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Do they? I'd say on the contrary modern cars have more problems, especially with all the electronic equipment.
Yes, but in most cases, electronic failures have a safety backup so you can make it to the garage and don't break down in the middle of nowhere.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:47 PM   #2313
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Quote:
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Theory: People have started to demand better infrastructure. The state is generally against using money on it and have therefore started to cut cost through various means so that each krone should result in more visible roads to stop the complaints.
I don't think that politicians are against spending money. Politicians love to cut the red tape, as we just learned.

Public money is usually tight - even in Norway, understand it or not - so they tend to build cheap.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:49 PM   #2314
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According to the current Norwegian road standards, wide shoulders (3 m) should only be built on roads with AADT over 20k and speed limit 100 km/h.

Shoulders are nice, but it's a question of money. From a road safety perspective, the money is better spent elsewhere. The number of severe accidents that happen due to lack of hard shoulder is almost negligible compared to other types of accidents, for example head-on collisions on undevided roads.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 09:47 AM   #2315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Yes, but in most cases, electronic failures have a safety backup so you can make it to the garage and don't break down in the middle of nowhere.
If it wasn't for my experience with Mazda, Opel and Lancia, I would agree with you, but I can assure you the electronic equipment malfunction can and does stop the car very often in the middle of nowhere.

Sorry for the OT.
Now back to Norwegian infrastructure.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #2316
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Both Høyre, Frp and KrF have earlier stated that all future parts on E18 Oslo – Kristiansand should have a width of 23 m instead of planned 20 m (shoulders of 3,0 m instead of 1,5 m).

My guess is that most new Norwegian motorways will get a width of at least 23 m (especially considering a future speed-limit of 130 km/t). E18 Arendal – Tvedestrand might be the first stretch with improved standard (23 m instead of originally planned 20 m).

E6 Tonstad – Sentervegen got low speed-limit (80 km/t), but much traffic, especially during rush-hours. If saving land is an argument for building narrow shoulders, why then is the median 6 m. By the way, many European countries got wider shoulders than 1,5 m on their city-motorways.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:49 PM   #2317
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So what has happened that now, they no longer want to pay the extra for the hard shoulder? For safety reasons, they should put them in.
I think it's mostly related to the large anti-road segment that has had much influence the last couple of decades or so. So firstly, not much money is allocated to road building or maintenance and they have to do the best they can with the money that's available. Secondly, what the anti-road brigade see as "extravagant" road building does not get the support it needs, so roads are built with lower standards in such a way that they look "reasonable", just the bare minimum, to keep them happy. You'll se the same in other countries, where roads are designated as expressways instead of motorways just so they'll be allowed to build them.

Of course, anyone with a bit of knowledge will realize that this is bullpoop. The decisions are highly politicized, and I'm sure the people working in the road directorate or whoever is responsible for actually getting the roads built realize the importance of shoulders and road geometry, but they have to cut back to get the support they need.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #2318
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Is the Norwegian road budget really that low?

Let's compare a few countries.

Road budget (2013 or 2014):

* Germany: € 5.8 billion
* Netherlands: € 2.7 billion
* Norway: € 2.8 billion
* Spain: € 2.2 billion

Per capita road budget:

* Norway: € 560
* Netherlands: € 162
* Germany: € 72
* Spain: € 47
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Old October 25th, 2013, 03:32 AM   #2319
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Do you know total length of state road network in these countries as well? It's an interesting comparison, but I feel a need for more specifics.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #2320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is the Norwegian road budget really that low?

Let's compare a few countries.

Road budget (2013 or 2014):

* Germany: € 5.8 billion
* Netherlands: € 2.7 billion
* Norway: € 2.8 billion
* Spain: € 2.2 billion

Per capita road budget:

* Norway: € 560
* Netherlands: € 162
* Germany: € 72
* Spain: € 47
I am rather reluctant to believe in this sort of comparison leading to a useful conclusion, for several reasons:
  • I would compare the implied value from the investments, not the investements cost themselves. These are two different things, and the value is not necessarily directly proportional to the cost.
  • The investment criteria in a sparsely populated country are different from those made in the crowded countries. If Norway builds a road to a village of 20 people using one million euro, that is 50.000 euro per capita. Such a case is nonexistent in Netherlands, say, I believe. Thus you will less return of investment in Norway than elsewhere (or vice versa: you must spend more to gain the same value).
  • The road construction cost in the arctic areas is rather high. Again, less return from the same money.
  • The figures shown are not necessarily correct. In most countries, the investments are done at country, region and local levels. Each country does it in its own way. Typically, the consolidating the cost figures of the local activities is a painful task, often a mission impossible. If the money allocation is very decentralized, the capture rate of the calculation might be low, thus making the statistic less credible. Therefore, you may end up comparing apples to oranges.
  • The degree of investing in the Public-Private Partnership mode may vary. In the PPP mode, the investments and the maintenance cost are not necessarily broken down into separately figures. Again, you may end up comparing apples to oranges.
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