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Old October 25th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #2321
TrentSteele
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Norway also likes building very expensive infrastructure with very low ROI in sparsely populated areas. Some of them may be impressive and fascinating, but when looked at through more realistic eyes they do not seem very prudent. The previous government(s) favored these kinds of projects over more "mundane" projects like motorways connecting the cities, often justifying them with arguments about preventing rural flight. This is fine, but it's not fine to do so at the expense of core infrastructure like cities and roads connecting cities. These projects were often done piece-meal which further raises the costs, resulting in less value for money.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #2322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is the Norwegian road budget really that low?

Let's compare a few countries.

Road budget (2013 or 2014):

* Germany: € 5.8 billion
* Netherlands: € 2.7 billion
* Norway: € 2.8 billion
* Spain: € 2.2 billion

Per capita road budget:

* Norway: € 560
* Netherlands: € 162
* Germany: € 72
* Spain: € 47
Those figures are only for the state-owned road network, right? The Spanish Autonomous Regions have their own roads, which are created and mantained via each Region's budget.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #2323
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Many Spanish autonomous roads are actually funded by Fomento (national government), especially high-standard ones.

My point was not to provide exact figures as a fact (I merely compared national budgets), but to start a discussion about the claim that Norway doesn't spend a lot of money on roads. Norway spends a whole lot of money on roads, but often not in the right places. The investment per capita in rural areas is staggering, while the investment per capita in metropolitan areas is low.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentSteele View Post
Norway also likes building very expensive infrastructure with very low ROI in sparsely populated areas. Some of them may be impressive and fascinating, but when looked at through more realistic eyes they do not seem very prudent. The previous government(s) favored these kinds of projects over more "mundane" projects like motorways connecting the cities, often justifying them with arguments about preventing rural flight. This is fine, but it's not fine to do so at the expense of core infrastructure like cities and roads connecting cities. These projects were often done piece-meal which further raises the costs, resulting in less value for money.
Have there ever been any attempts at looking into whether these infrastructure projects actually stops rural depopulation? My impression is that they usually just result in a nice bridge to drive over when they move away from these places, but it does little do change the reason for the depopulation in the first place (lack of opportunities in comparison with cities).
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Old October 25th, 2013, 07:32 PM   #2325
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Have there ever been any attempts at looking into whether these infrastructure projects actually stops rural depopulation?
NRK looked at the effect on population with 40 bridge and sub-sea tunnel projects constructed over the last 30 years, and the results were mixed. In Northern Norway, the population has mostly decreased on islands that received fixed mainland connections.

For example, since The Mjøsund bridge was built in 1994, the population in Ibestad (Troms) has been reduced by one third.



And when the bridge connecting Sundøya in Helgeland to the mainland was completed in 2003, the population on the island was 129. It's since come down to 101.


In Southern Norway OTOH, population has often increased. Generally, islands that are within commuting distance to cities has seen population increases.

http://www.nrk.no/okonomi/fraflyttin...ser-1.10964923
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Old October 26th, 2013, 03:35 AM   #2326
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How I hate writing with the phone....

In general I agree, although I believe the biggest cost driver in Norwegian road construction is the lack of long term planning rather than smaller local projects. However, regarding Trøndelag, the article you refer to is wrong, but not its statistics. The net trend for the four island connected to the mainland is a strong population growth. In fact, outside the Trondheim region, Hitra and Frøya have strongest growth in Trøndelag. This would probably not have been possible without the tunnels as the all-important salmon producers depend on them. Smaller projects are nowadays paid by the counties or boroughs, so they actually do not affect national road strategies directly.

The new Trondheim E6 is a prime example of some of the problems with Norwegian road building. After years of construction, the traffic problems are only moved a km, in a year or two they will have to sign new contracts, and hamper the traffic once more for another km or two, unless the new government hold their promises and do things more efficiently. Let's at least hope the rest of the E6 will follow the standard and get 3 my hard shoulders (and hence a chance for 100+ speed limit)
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Old October 26th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #2327
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Chinese company to build Hålogalandsbrua

A Chinese company, Sichuan Road and Bridge Group*, has won the steel contract of the Hålogaland bridge with a bid of 755 MNOK (~100 M€). The total price tag of the project, which also includes some tunnels and connecting roads, is more than 2 billion NOK. As far as I know, this is the first major road construction contract in Norway that goes to a Chinese company. The bridge crosses a fjord and shortens the E6 north of Narvik in Northern Norway.
http://www.fremover.no/lokale_nyhete...cle6938194.ece
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; October 26th, 2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 03:01 PM   #2328
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The Chinese are certainly capable of constructing large and advanced infrastructure. However, will they also be capable of operating in the Norwegian political and judicial environment? Experiences with Chinese construction in Poland have been negative, they had to withdraw from a large motorway construction contract. The Chinese thought they would be building in Africa-like circumstances politically. Right now the Chinese are aiming at construction projects in Romania and Serbia. We'll have to see how that goes.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #2329
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Let's hope they have done their homework. Their bid was only 30 MNOK lower than the second cheapest bid. To me, this whole project seems a bit marginal. Less than 20km is cut, and the traffic is limited. Hålogaland is an old name for Northern Norway btw, but essentially this is a local project, not a regional one.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #2330
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
To me, this whole project seems a bit marginal. Less than 20km is cut, and the traffic is limited. Hålogaland is an old name for Northern Norway btw, but essentially this is a local project, not a regional one.
Don't agree at all mate. Any project that shorten distances and travel times on E6 is of national importance. And the traffic is about 3000 AaDT. Twice the amount of some of the fjord crossings on E 39. And 50 % higher than for example Kvikne. I would hardly call a project on Rv 3 over Kvikne of local importance.
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Old October 27th, 2013, 02:29 AM   #2331
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I do not think the bridge is useless, but there are other places where 2.2 billions could be used in a better way today. I think that the project is mainly local because that is what the majority of the traffic is, in contrast to Kvikne. My point was merely that Hålogalandsbrua is a nice marketing trick, as most people of Northern Norway, both north, south and even west (Vesterålen and Lofoten) of Narvik use other roads to connect to the outside world. The E6 in this area is however important in connecting Bodø and Narvik to Tromsø (whatever that is worth), but more importantly connecting Narvik to Evenes airport. Ofotenbrua would have been a more proper name.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; October 27th, 2013 at 02:40 AM.
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Old October 27th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #2332
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Scary......

In the meantime on a different place along the E6 :
http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/10/26/n...9992724/?www=1
Watch the first video
Luckily no fatalities........
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Old October 28th, 2013, 01:24 AM   #2333
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AADT of almost 20.000 on a national route, obviously calls for a tunnel of two lanes, no divider and 80 km/h speed limit
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Old October 28th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #2334
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Money isnt the problem - its the culture. Norwegians, even in private situations, tend to see infrastructure building as an expense rather than as a long-term investment.

So the idea of doing it, well, doing it right, last for a long time, we will all enjoy it, user comfort, etc, is not really the top of mind. Primary thought is get something done and run off.

You see this even when private properly "grendelags" are owners the decision makers in similar situations. People have a hard time seeing this from the inside, but most foreigners in Norway catch on fairly quickly. I suspect it is some leftover from the Lutheran culture. Shouldn't enjoy yourself too much.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 01:44 PM   #2335
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I suspect it is some leftover from the Lutheran culture. Shouldn't enjoy yourself too much.
Yet Luther himself had a brewery, so his mates came round every night to drink and chat and play skittles (which Luther codified the rules for). Luther also severely attacked the "I can't have the best" approach to live.

The idea of doing something flimsy and half-assed is a much more recent thing. Who cares if something doesn't last 100 years - you won't live to see that. Who cares if it isn't gold plated, its my money you are spending.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 07:51 PM   #2336
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M I suspect it is some leftover from the Lutheran culture. Shouldn't enjoy yourself too much.
No, it is Janteloven.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #2337
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E6 Hålogaland Bridge

Great video about the new Hålogaland Bridge near Narvik.

It's in English.

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Old October 30th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #2338
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No, it is Janteloven.
No, Norwegian infrastructure politics are far more complex (or simple, depending on point of view) than that. The main issues are directly linked to the development of Norway as a sovereign state. There's always been a strong rural influence on important structural aspects of the Norwegian democracy and even though the "centre" (i.e. national government, the Oslo region) has strengthened its position over the past century, rural Norway is still far more powerful than rural Sweden, for instance.

This is certainly not only a negative, but in terms of developing a coherent national infrastructure, it's certainly a problem. Partly because there is a belief that infrastructure spending should benefit all parts of the country equally (certain politicians stated after the opening of Oslo Airport Gardermoen that similar investments now were due in their region...), but mostly because the regional and local governments hold actual power over national budgets. National roads (even E roads) were for most purposes county roads in terms of financing and development until the early 90s and local councils may still delay (or derail completely...) projects they find objectable...
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Old October 31st, 2013, 05:01 PM   #2339
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New e-18 Mosseveien in Oslo:



'

http://dittoslo.no/nordstrands-blad/...eien-1.8136430

Today: https://maps.google.no/maps?q=Oslo&h...near=Oslo&z=17
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 05:03 PM   #2340
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I was in doubt whether that was a render or a miniature
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