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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #2361
Galro
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Location for the 16 new toll booths to be built around Trondheim (the squares with red markings on them are new):



http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondh...le8652871.ece#

Last edited by Galro; November 20th, 2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #2362
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From Oslo how long time does a trip to Stavanger, Bergen, Trondheim and GBG take?
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #2363
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Using google maps:

6 hours and 15 min to Trondheim: https://maps.google.no/maps?saddr=Os...t=h&mra=ls&z=6

6 hours and 52 min to Bergen: https://maps.google.no/maps?saddr=Os...t=h&mra=ls&z=8

6 hours and 53 min to Stavanger: https://maps.google.no/maps?saddr=Os...t=h&mra=ls&z=8

2 hours and 48 min to Gothenburg: https://maps.google.no/maps?saddr=Os...t=h&mra=ls&z=8
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #2364
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wow So GBG is way closer huh
Is traffic lighter going south from Oslo vs going west?
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:19 PM   #2365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror's Edge View Post
wow So GBG is way closer huh
Is traffic lighter going south from Oslo vs going west?
I don't think so. The south coast is quite heavily populated by Norwegian standards so there is a lot of local traffic there. The road quality is generally much better though so the traffic volumes may not be as noticeable.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #2366
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I don't think so. The south coast is quite heavily populated by Norwegian standards so there is a lot of local traffic there. The road quality is generally much better though so the traffic volumes may not be as noticeable.
It strange it's only 2 and half hours between the city's but the relationship is really non existing..
Is it EU or what?
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:50 PM   #2367
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I'm not sure I understand your last question. What do you mean with "is it EU"?
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:59 PM   #2368
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Quote:
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I'm not sure I understand your last question. What do you mean with "is it EU"?
Is GBG look inward toward EU and Norway looks away because of EU?
These city's could work together more and counter CPH and STHLM.

Hope the motorway is done soon, that should help a lot.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #2369
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What kind of relationship are you thinking about? They're too far apart for commuting or recreational shopping. And probably few Norwegians have relatives living in Sweden and vice versa.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #2370
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Ah, you meant it that way. I don't think it have much to do with EU as such. I think it's rather the outer way around; Norway in general have a rather mentality and therefore voted against being part of the EU and generally do not see any great benefits with corporation across the boarders.

There have been some attempts at establishing some corporation with talks about building a high speed line, but it don't appear to have been very successful or popular among the masses.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #2371
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Quote:
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What kind of relationship are you thinking about? They're too far apart for commuting or recreational shopping. And probably few Norwegians have relatives living in Sweden and vice versa.
Share airport and harbor infrastructure, rare stores will come if they know both city's are "one market", pan-Nordic HQs always go to Öresund or STHLM today etc.
Both Oslo and GBG are losing out.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #2372
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Oslo isn't much closer to Göteborg than Copenhagen. What would they do, construct airport, harour in Strömstad in the middle?

The route Oslo - Copenhagen made an interest group "8 million city".
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #2373
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Oslo isn't much closer to Göteborg than Copenhagen. What would they do, construct airport, harour in Strömstad in the middle?
Yes, any side is fine, with motorway and HSR all the way there from both city's.
Gardemoen is apparently very expansive to keep open anyway because of all the snow so why not?
Would rival Kastrup.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #2374
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Quote:
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and generally do not see any great benefits with corporation across the boarders.
You mean "that specific cooperation across the borders" - I don't see Norway as unwilling to cooperate with its neighbours. I imagine that opposition to the EU were do with the awful Common Fisheries Policy, the lose of a seat at the world table (Norway gets a seat on the WTO, rather than share the EU seat. And the EU laughs at Norway's government by fax-from-Brussels, but Brussels has to implement the WTO's stuff, which consists of most of the faxes to Oslo. Better to have a say higher up).

And certainly the UK "no" campaign attacks the insular nature of the EU - if Norway wants free trade with it's neighbours across the Arctic Sea, it can negotiate on its own with Russia, Canada and the US. The EU has finally got Canada, after 40 years of UK trying to get the rest of the inward-looking EU aboard, having lost it the day they joined.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:48 PM   #2375
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No, I mean corporation across the borders in general. Of course our politicians (may) have different views but any corporation with any foreign countries is generally very unpopular in Norway among the general population.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #2376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror's Edge View Post
Share airport and harbor infrastructure, rare stores will come if they know both city's are "one market", pan-Nordic HQs always go to Öresund or STHLM today etc.
Both Oslo and GBG are losing out.
Oslo and Gothenburg? Seriously?

The distance between the cities is about 300 km, about the same as between Paris and Brussels, Tallinn and Riga, Zürich and Milano, or even Stockholm and Jönköping. Nobody would ever suggest them to be twin cities.

The Copenhagen-Malmö distance is 30+ km, thus roughly one tenth of the distance Oslo-Göteborg. Not a perfect match.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:52 PM   #2377
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Slightly less than 300 km (290 km by road, 255 km in a straight line). This is fairly, but not exceptionally, close for two large cities. According to Wikipedia there are 20 cities above 1 million, and another 33 between 500,000 and 1 million in the EU (thus excluding Norway, Switzerland, and Eastern Europe).

Traffic between the two cities is relatively low, but not for two cities with a border between them. There is a fair number of buses going daily.

This distance is fairly ideal for high-speed rail, there is a thread about that, as you know. Sustained speeds at 200 km/h would mean one and a half hour travel time between Oslo and Gothenburg, which makes day trips, but not daily commutes, convenient. The same goes for the distance Gothenburg-Copenhagen.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:21 PM   #2378
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Interesting video about the new project in Rogaland. Unfortunate it is only in Norwegian, but I think the graphics bring some info for those who don't understand Norwegian.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:15 AM   #2379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Slightly less than 300 km (290 km by road, 255 km in a straight line). This is fairly, but not exceptionally, close for two large cities. According to Wikipedia there are 20 cities above 1 million, and another 33 between 500,000 and 1 million in the EU (thus excluding Norway, Switzerland, and Eastern Europe).

Traffic between the two cities is relatively low, but not for two cities with a border between them. There is a fair number of buses going daily.

This distance is fairly ideal for high-speed rail, there is a thread about that, as you know. Sustained speeds at 200 km/h would mean one and a half hour travel time between Oslo and Gothenburg, which makes day trips, but not daily commutes, convenient. The same goes for the distance Gothenburg-Copenhagen.
But why?
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:51 AM   #2380
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There are some research results that influence city and infrastructure planning, among them studies on city size and economy. One, that larger cities seem to use resources more efficiently, cities double the size use only 85% more resources. Another, much more influential, say that cities double the size have 130% higher GDP (som udesirables like crime and traffic also go up). Now these studies haven't really showed the mechanism of this, correlation doesn't mean causation. It could for instance be that larger cities are larger precisely because they use resources more efficiently and thus get richer. There are also dissenting voices like the US anti-urbanist/pro-suburbanist Kotkin.

I wouldn't say that the case is decisively shown, but if I were to bet it is more likely to be true than not. These results have already shaped China. Some places like Singapore, Hong Kong, even central Japan, have no choice. They have no land, their cities have to grow huge. China, contrary to common belief, isn't overpopulated. They got much more people than Europe, but also much more land. Still they build cities as if they were Singapore or Japan. Why? The results above. China wants to get rich quick, and the quickest way is to grow their cities big, influential, and hopefully productive.

The same why goes for Oslo-Gothenburg. In Europe we like our cities medium-sized, even small. But if Oslo and Gothenburg (or Gothenburg and Copenhagen/Malmö, or all of them), and the cities in between were one big virtual megacity, and the theory is right, this would have a huge impact. A true eight million megacity presupposes massive infrastructure that is very unlikely to happen, Oslo and Copenhagen would have to be within commute distance (to be generous one hour, or about 500-600 km/h sustained speed with no stops or wait), the commute would have to be affordable (a commuter typically spends less than one hour work on the return trip), and the system would have to be able to shift millions of people daily.

A more modest, but realistic, 200-250 km/h line wouldn't have that impact. It would be too slow and too expensive for a daily commute between Gothenburg and Oslo (Copenhagen), but it would make it feasible to commute for the towns and cities in between, and facilitate trade/business/exchange between the two major cities. The distance is too short for air transport (a plane takes you from Oslo to Gothenburg in about the same time as a bus or slow train, at much higher cost and less convenience), too long for bus, slow train, even cars. Time-wise getting to Gothenburg by these modes of transport is about the same as getting to Berlin, or at least Copenhagen, by air.

Getting back to topic, it is the same argument for improved road traffic but on a smaller scale. New and better roads will connect smaller towns and villages to larger cities, but because of the size differences the benefits will mostly be to the small towns (but are there many enough of those the city will benefit as well). You have some intercity examples, Oslo and Drammen are now within commute distance. I am sure Drammen has benefited significantly from this, and more invisibly so has Oslo.
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