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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:01 AM   #2781
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Quote:
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No, they have plenty of them. They are just not located on the Dannish mainland.
Okay, fair enough
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #2782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The old road is currently a regional road (Aurlandvegen) up to Erdal and a local road up to Vindedalen. The final leg to Revsnes is closed. It still may be passable by a bicycle, depending on how badly it is damaged. (The road was closed 99 times during its last 25 years due to landslides and avalanches.)
The road further out from Vindedal is still accessible by car too, although there are some rocks lying in the road here and there. At least when I rode a bicycle out that road a couple of years ago. Don´t remember exactly what kind of company that had some sort of junkyard out at Revsnes, but the road is only locked with a traditional liftable barrier.

Last edited by Gsus; July 4th, 2014 at 12:11 AM.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #2783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
No, they have plenty of them. They are just not located on the Dannish mainland.
Oh, yes they are.
Flensborg Fjord, Aabenraa Fjord, Haderslev Fjord, Kolding Fjord, Vejle Fjord, Horsens Fjord, to name but a few, are all of ice age origin, just like the Norwegian Fjords. They just do not reach the elevations on either shores to be that spectacular. But originally, they are the same. And they are on the Danish mainland.

(BTW Oslo Fjord is NOT of ice age origin, so it is not a legitimate Fjord anyway.)
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #2784
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How busy is the Russian-Norwegian border crossing east of Kirkenes? Something like few hundred vehicles per day or much on the thousands?
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #2785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Oh, yes they are.
Flensborg Fjord, Aabenraa Fjord, Haderslev Fjord, Kolding Fjord, Vejle Fjord, Horsens Fjord, to name but a few, are all of ice age origin, just like the Norwegian Fjords. They just do not reach the elevations on either shores to be that spectacular. But originally, they are the same. And they are on the Danish mainland.
Yes, but that's not the kind of fjords Suburbanist was referring to which was what I answered to.

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(BTW Oslo Fjord is NOT of ice age origin, so it is not a legitimate Fjord anyway.)
I'm aware.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #2786
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Yes, but that's not the kind of fjords Suburbanist was referring to which was what I answered to.
I can imagine what you two meant.
But saying, Denmark has no fjords, is just wrong.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 01:00 AM   #2787
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Some sectors of E18 have not been upgraded to expressway standards (even if 1+1). Are there plans for a full segregated highway from Kristiansand and Oslo?
All of it will be motorway. Vestfold is soon completed (2017).

Then (almost) all of the non-motortrafikkvei-stretches will be upgraded.
(Arendal-Tvedestrand & Dørdal-Rugtvedt. The section between Tvedestrand and Risør is pretty decent.)
Last but not least they will rebuild the recently built 2+1 road over Brokelandsheia.



Also, all of E 39 to from Kristiansand to Stavanger will be motorway in the future.

This can, according to the current government, happen in the next 10 to 15 years. We'll see about that. At least this government seems to have some basic knowledge about how infrastructure works, and how one goes about improving it.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 08:21 AM   #2788
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How busy is the Russian-Norwegian border crossing east of Kirkenes? Something like few hundred vehicles per day or much on the thousands?
According to the statistics from 2012-2013, about 300,000 persons per year. The number is increasing.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 09:21 AM   #2789
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One feature of a fjord is that it has a more shallow mouth where it meets the sea. That is a consequence of how it was made geologically, carved out by melting glaciers on the way to the sea, or more exactly by the gravel on the underside of that glacier. A U-shaped valley is carved out by a glacier, while a V-shaped valley is carved out by a river. A fjord would then be a submerged U-shaped valley.

A definition of a fjord is that a a fjord is an inlet with a mouth, that has been carved out by a glacier. By that definition some "flat fjords" would be fjords as well, I think that includes some (mainland) Danish fjords. I don't think it includes the Oslo Fjord, at least part of it, as that area isn't land ground down by ice and stone, but sea bottom that has risen with the rest of Scandinavia. (Scandinavia was weighted down by all the ice on top 10,000 years ago. In a geological time scale that was yesterday, so Scandinavia is still bobbing up, while on the other end of the continent Italy is sinking.)
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Old July 4th, 2014, 10:59 AM   #2790
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According to the geographic definition, non of the mainland Danish or West- coast Swedish fjords are true fjords, while most Norwegian fjords are, with notable exceptions like already mentioned Oslofjorden and Vestfjorden. This is however a highly academic discussion. The Scandinavian usage of the word predates the modern scientific definition by many millenia.

From an infrastructure perspective, the layout of true fjords are however worth noting. The main basins of the fjords are often quite wide (many km), and could also be deep. Sognefjorden is more than 1300 m deep, Trondheimsfjorden is 600, as far as I remember. This means that constructing a permanent railway or road crossing could be a real engineering challenge. However, at the mouth, and sometimes also in other sections of the fjords, the glaciers deposited huge amounts of gravel making thresholds of shallower water that can improve feasibility of such projects.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 4th, 2014 at 11:05 AM.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #2791
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Several of the Swedish fjords are much deeper farther in and then shallower near the sea, Gullmarsfjorden is 118m inside and 20-40 at the entrance to the ocean, 1-3km wide and 30-35km long. Not a huge fjord but yeah that's a "real fjord" alright.

Anyway in Swedish the word fjord is just a west coast version of the word Fjärd used elsewhere, today it's however often used to describe this unique kind of waterway but no doubt in West-Sweden and DK it's the word for "waterway", not need for depth BS etc.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 01:27 PM   #2792
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There are a few true fjords in Sweden. Gullmarsfjorden is one of them.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 02:13 PM   #2793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
According to the geographic definition, non of the mainland Danish or West- coast Swedish fjords are true fjords, while most Norwegian fjords are, with notable exceptions like already mentioned Oslofjorden and Vestfjorden. This is however a highly academic discussion. The Scandinavian usage of the word predates the modern scientific definition by many millenia.

From an infrastructure perspective, the layout of true fjords are however worth noting. The main basins of the fjords are often quite wide (many km), and could also be deep. Sognefjorden is more than 1300 m deep, Trondheimsfjorden is 600, as far as I remember. This means that constructing a permanent railway or road crossing could be a real engineering challenge. However, at the mouth, and sometimes also in other sections of the fjords, the glaciers deposited huge amounts of gravel making thresholds of shallower water that can improve feasibility of such projects.
That is a very deep fjord indeed.

What about using floating bridges/tunnels to cross these deep fjords too wide for a suspension bridge?
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Old July 4th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #2794
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That is a very deep fjord indeed.

What about using floating bridges/tunnels to cross these deep fjords too wide for a suspension bridge?
Fjords are often as deep as the mountainsides along them are tall.

The Nordhordland Bridge north of Bergen is a 1.6 km long floating bridge (picture below) which crosses Salhusfjorden/Osterfjorden, which is more than 600 meters deep at some places. Statens vegvesen is considering a floating bridge or a floating tunnel for crossing Sognefjorden (video below). I don't think a floating tunnel has ever been built before, but with the engineering expertise there is in Norway in the offshore-industries, perhaps it will be feasible.





Quote:
Anyway in Swedish the word fjord is just a west coast version of the word Fjärd used elsewhere, today it's however often used to describe this unique kind of waterway but no doubt in West-Sweden and DK it's the word for "waterway", not need for depth BS etc.
Hmm, I've never noticed the word fjärd before.

Last edited by Stafangr; July 4th, 2014 at 07:43 PM.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 03:27 PM   #2795
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The term "förde" is also used in northern Germany, especially in Schleswig-Holstein state.

The geological definition of a fjord differs from the Scandinavian term fjord, which is much older (and broader). Sometimes the word fjord is also used for bays in Galicia (Spain) and Montenegro / Croatia, but the term "ría" is more appropriate (sunken valleys).
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Old July 4th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #2796
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Quote:
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That is a very deep fjord indeed.

What about using floating bridges/tunnels to cross these deep fjords too wide for a suspension bridge?
I kind of hope they will. It would be a sort of a rich man's folly to engineer something like that in areas where few people live, but there are many economically important straits and channels, particularly in Asia, that share the characteristics of a fjord crossing and would benefit from a "Norwegian prototype". Either because of sea floor depth like the fjords, or maybe length or earthquake resistance. Politicians are naturally wary of a massively expensive project with unproven technology.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 04:24 PM   #2797
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A floating suspension bridge is likely impossible, due to the way forces are lead to the ground. Usually suspension cables are anchored into the ground, or in a huge block of concrete in the water (like the San Francisco - Oakland Bay Bridge). I'm not sure if that will work with a floating object.

However, a floating cable-stayed bridge may be a better option for a Fjord crossing. The Nordhordland Bridge is a first step, but in that case the main pylons are built on land.

From what I've seen, the Sognefjord crossing is envisioned as a floating multi-span cable-stayed bridge. But isn't it feasible (and cheaper) as a large version of the Nordhordland Bridge? A single main span near the shore for cruise ships, and the rest of the route as a low-level floating causeway.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 05:52 PM   #2798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
I kind of hope they will. It would be a sort of a rich man's folly to engineer something like that in areas where few people live, but there are many economically important straits and channels, particularly in Asia, that share the characteristics of a fjord crossing and would benefit from a "Norwegian prototype". Either because of sea floor depth like the fjords, or maybe length or earthquake resistance. Politicians are naturally wary of a massively expensive project with unproven technology.
We can start with the one that is where people live. Moss-Horten is about 250 meters down to sediments, some places more than 400 meters down to rock. http://www.vegvesen.no/_attachment/3...r+arbeidet.pdf
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Old July 4th, 2014, 05:58 PM   #2799
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Chris: What you suggest har more or less been suggested for a crossing of Trondheimsfjorden:

However, you need somewhere to put that other pylon, in the Trondheimfjorden case they wanted to utilize a submerged "mountain"/ skerry. Reinertsen has suggested to combine a floating bridge with a floating tunnel, both for Sognefjorden, Rovdefjorden, and Trondheimsfjorden. It is stabilized by an aritificial sea bottom anchoraged to the coast at either side.


Appart from the costs, there are problems with either solutions. Some industries, like the offshore industry in the inner Trondheim fjord, is dependent on quite deep sailing depths, which makes the partly submerged solution tricky. At the same time, suspension bridges with sufficient sailing heights probably will be quite expensive. A fully submerged tunnel will have some maintenance and safety issues as well.
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Old July 4th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #2800
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Back to motorway-news..
E18 Gulli-Langåker officially opened today, 4 months early. As usual for such a "prestige way of spending state money" both prime minister, minister of transportation, and all possible mayors was at place in the midst of the common holiday.

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