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Old July 9th, 2014, 02:12 PM   #2821
ChrisZwolle
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The toll rings are actually not specifically targeting transit traffic, but rather traffic going into the cities. In Bergen's case, you only pay a toll if you drive into a city. So if you transit through a city, you only pay tolls once. You are not tolled when you pass the toll ring outbound.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 02:20 PM   #2822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The toll rings are actually not specifically targeting transit traffic, but rather traffic going into the cities. In Bergen's case, you only pay a toll if you drive into a city. So if you transit through a city, you only pay tolls once. You are not tolled when you pass the toll ring outbound.
And when you don't have any alternative, but to take the main road, which ironically goes through a tolled city, you are always charged at the end, as in the Middle Age .
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Old July 9th, 2014, 02:26 PM   #2823
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Yes, you get charged if you drive through Bergen or Oslo. There is no point in avoiding tolls, all possible alternative routes are tolled as well. Often if they build a new tolled motorway, they install toll gantries across minor alternate routes as well, for example when the Svinesund Bridge to Sweden was completed, not only the bridge was tolled, but also the older smaller bridge to avoid undesired shunpiking.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #2824
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Wow. That's just mean.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #2825
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Quote:
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to avoid undesired shunpiking.
Sure, in a country bigger than Poland, with almost eight time less inhabitants, with main cites as big as small to low-medium size in other European places, with enormous revenues from petroleum, it must be a very serious "unsolvable" problem . IMHO, the problem is rather that it's just another anti-car culture led by leftist ideologists in this field .
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Old July 9th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #2826
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Why does Norway use yellow central lines?
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #2827
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Sure, in a country bigger than Poland, with almost eight time less inhabitants, with main cites as big as small to low-medium size in other European places, with enormous revenues from petroleum, it must be a very serious "unsolvable" problem . IMHO, the problem is rather that it's just another anti-car culture led by leftist ideologists in this field .
No Sir, I disagree. If you take a look at how many km of new roads are built in very mountainous country with a very low population density, then there can not be talking of an anti-car ideologfy. Quite on the contrary. Billons of kroner are spent for road projects that benefit a handful of residents.

The point with the toll rings is of course to reduce traffic in the cities. The toll on the bypass is to partly downpay the bypass (while the majority is financed by taxes). No logical link between these two things. That's Norway: pragmatic, not ideologic.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:44 PM   #2828
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And when you don't have any alternative, but to take the main road, which ironically goes through a tolled city, you are always charged at the end, as in the Middle Age .
The road 580 is still free of tolls for now tough
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Old July 9th, 2014, 10:35 PM   #2829
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Why not invest more for the country instead of investing in The Government Pension Fund of Norway (which btw. is not even a pension fund) by reducing its exorbitant (IMO, unnecessarily high) incomes to redistribute them in important national projects, as well, to reduce funny gas prices?
In fact, many roads in Norway are tolled, there is also very few motorway/expressway; so basically these toll roads are mostly 2-lane rural highways or 4 lane "sub-expressway standards" bypasses, not to mention several cities charging motorists just to transit them.
The Government Pension Fund – Global (aka oljefondet) isn't a pension fund because its funding comes from taxation of oil companies and income from government-owned oil companies, but it's raison d'être is to secure and manage Norway's oil-wealth for future generations. However there's also The Government Pension Fund – Norway, which is a pension fund, and keeps its investments in Norway and Norwegian companies.

Business in Norway is mostly export-oriented (because it's a small marked), and vulnerable to the high cost of labour. We often talk about the 'todeling av norsk økonomi' (ie. the different shape of the offshore-industry compared to the onshore industries). To prevent the onshore industries from losing competitiveness, the government limits its spending to prevent inflation (by following handlingsregelen, aka the budgetary rule), and during negotiations between the labour unions and the employer unions, they - the unions - try to keep/limit the increase in wages of the socalled frontfagene (jobs which are exposed to global competition), so the wages don't increase compared to our competitors.
Spending more of oljefondet in Norway than what handlingsregelen allows for, would surely be nice in the short term, but in the long term...

Some would actually argue to reduce spending compared to what handlingsregelen allows for. The Government Pension Fund – Global has prevented Norway from becoming a victim of the Dutch disease, but because private business in Norway is doing fine and the size of oljefondet has grown so much, the economy is already overheated.

Fuel price are not ridiculous compared to income, the government spends the income from taxes to provide free education and healtcare, and people want better roads and infrastructure sooner than what the government can provide just from the government budget, and are thus willing to pay on toll roads.

Btw, Fremskrittpartiet's (the Progress Party) stance on infrastructure and toll roads is a part of the explanation of what makes them popular. We'll see what they'll change later this year when the Høyre/FRP-government will release their first yearly government budget.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #2830
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Fuel price are not ridiculous compared to income,
True, the fuel price in Norway is only about 5-7% higher than in the Netherlands, while the average Dutch gross income is half that of a Norwegian (€ 2.500 vs € 5.000).

Norway is an expensive country for foreigners though. I spoke to a Swedish lady on a campsite in Sweden and even they found Norway to be woefully expensive. Most Dutch think Scandinavia is all equally expensive, but there are considerable differences. Norwegian discount supermarkets are twice as expensive as full-service supermarkets in the Netherlands.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 10:59 PM   #2831
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Quote:
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No Sir, I disagree. If you take a look at how many km of new roads are built in very mountainous country with a very low population density, then there can not be talking of an anti-car ideologfy. Quite on the contrary. Billons of kroner are spent for road projects that benefit a handful of residents.
Well, road construction doesn't necessarily means that it's pro-car either, as it is used by public transportation and slow traffic, as well. So building new roads can feed anti-car ideology too.
One must not forget that in Norway there are several remote places where people live, and often there is only one narrow road that link them to rest of civilization. No road: very difficult link with the rest of the country. Even now, it's still difficult to link many places efficiently by land transportation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
The point with the toll rings is of course to reduce traffic in the cities. The toll on the bypass is to partly downpay the bypass (while the majority is financed by taxes). No logical link between these two things. That's Norway: pragmatic, not ideologic.
Pragmatism is the "second motto" of Switzerland likewise .
Still, city tolls are nonexistent, even with a lot higher population density, with more cars, for a country that is nearly 10 times smaller than NORWAY, but contrariwise with very few natural resources, and there are lots of mountains .
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Old July 9th, 2014, 11:07 PM   #2832
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Pragmatism is the "second motto" of Switzerland likewise .
Still, city tolls are nonexistent, even with a lot higher population density, with more cars, for a country that is nearly 10 times smaller than NORWAY, but contrariwise with very few natural resources, and there are lots of mountains .
We too have neighbors with many inhabitants, but most Swedes and Russians don't drive through Norway on their way to Europe.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #2833
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From a geological standpoint, how difficult is it do drill tunnels on fjords? Is it all solid rock? Is the water table a problem?
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Old July 9th, 2014, 11:24 PM   #2834
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We too have neighbors with many inhabitants, but most Swedes and Russians don't drive through Norway on their way to Europe.
Nonetheless, our neighbors don't transit everywhere in the country. It's essentially the N/S axis by motorway A2 and A13, during longer bank holidays.
Anyway, Norway lack a good road like E4 and E10 in Sweden to transit through.
A friend I met in Narvik who was driving to Oslo, told me that it's more comfortable, faster and cheaper to transit by Sweden, even if it's nearly 300 km longer.
Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Narv...59.9138688!3e0

Last edited by John Maynard; July 9th, 2014 at 11:40 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 11:26 PM   #2835
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Norway is an expensive country for foreigners though. I spoke to a Swedish lady on a campsite in Sweden and even they found Norway to be woefully expensive. Most Dutch think Scandinavia is all equally expensive, but there are considerable differences. Norwegian discount supermarkets are twice as expensive as full-service supermarkets in the Netherlands.
Well, Sweden isn't an odd country when it comes to the financial crisis. Norway was barely touched by the crisis, while Sweden went through rough times. At one point the GDP of Norway was higher than that of Sweden, because the Norwegian krone became stronger, while the Swedish krona was weak.

Norway's economy is almost completely integrated with the European single marked, but we still have customs on food imports.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 11:55 PM   #2836
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Yes, you get charged if you drive through Bergen or Oslo. There is no point in avoiding tolls, all possible alternative routes are tolled as well. Often if they build a new tolled motorway, they install toll gantries across minor alternate routes as well, for example when the Svinesund Bridge to Sweden was completed, not only the bridge was tolled, but also the older smaller bridge to avoid undesired shunpiking.
Bergen can be bypassed via Arna toll free, using E16 and 580.

However, if you are for some reason driving along E39 in the first place, you'll probably be using a couple of ferries anyway, and compared to them the Bergen toll is really marginal. Taking the extra time for using a lower-class road and considering an average Norwegian worker's salary, it's not really worth it.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 12:21 AM   #2837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Sure, in a country bigger than Poland, with almost eight time less inhabitants, with main cites as big as small to low-medium size in other European places, with enormous revenues from petroleum, it must be a very serious "unsolvable" problem . IMHO, the problem is rather that it's just another anti-car culture led by leftist ideologists in this field .
Many Norwegian have traditionally viewed cars as a luxury. I believe it is leftover from pre 1960, when Norway had restriction on the sale of non-soviet cars - you needed a written permission from your local police office that you had need for a car if you wanted a non-soviet car prior to that. This meant that cars tended to be reserved for the rich, people with social resources and those with important jobs.

We have used toll roads longer than we have had concerns about inflation due to oil money. Our high car taxes and other stuff which can be perceived as anti-car, also precedes this period.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 02:09 AM   #2838
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I my point of view, both the bureaucracy when it comes to building roads and the cost of collecting the toll money, are where km are being lost. I really believe a new 'vegselskap'/'road company' and fewer toll companies would both speed up and increase the road building. Let's hope the government does a good job creating them.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 02:48 AM   #2839
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Many Norwegian have traditionally viewed cars as a luxury. I believe it is leftover from pre 1960, when Norway had restriction on the sale of non-soviet cars - you needed a written permission from your local police office that you had need for a car if you wanted a non-soviet car prior to that. This meant that cars tended to be reserved for the rich, people with social resources and those with important jobs.
What was the reason for this bizarre regime?
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Old July 10th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #2840
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What was the reason for this bizarre regime?
Lack of currency after ww2 and it was decided that what Norway had should rather be used to import necessarily things for rebuilding the country. Soviet on the other hand were willing to exchange cars for fish and gods which we had more of.
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