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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:44 PM   #2881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwestah View Post
No, you pay an own contribution of about 100-200 NOK for a consultation. Often a bit more when going to a specialist at the hospital e.g. However, after you've spent a predetermined amount (don't know the exact amount) on public health expenses, your next "visits" are free.
http://www.helfo.no/privatperson/ege...x#.U8WSXLH9zK0
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #2882
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Yet, is there no major opposition, nor petitions or demonstrations for this very unfair matter of fact?
The progress party have traditionally been against toll financing, but they are considered to be populistic in Norway due to this among other things and they do not have enough support to force anything through them self. You will sometime get petitions against specific toll schemes, but I don't think it have ever yield a result. Come to think of it I'm not sure if any petitions ave produced anything productive in this country at all. Keep in mind though that Norway is not a direct democracy like Switzerland and the politicians have no legal obligations to listen to the people here. We do not really have any traditions for referendums and effective petitions and there are few avenues available for your average joe to voice his opinion through.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 12:04 AM   #2883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwestah View Post
No, you pay an own contribution of about 100-200 NOK for a consultation. Often a bit more when going to a specialist at the hospital e.g. However, after you've spent a predetermined amount (don't know the exact amount) on public health expenses, your next "visits" are free.
Yet dental care in "socialist" Norway is not part of the free health care at all
Seems to be the same in Sweden, while Denmark has a subsidized system.

What happened to the "Roads in Norway" btw? Maybe we need a "Taxation in Norway"-thread?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #2884
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Are the national roads - which I assume ring roads to be part of it - founded by municipalities instead of the national state in Norway?
Only the most important ring roads in the big cities are part of the national road network. Ring 1 and Ring 3 in Oslo, Rv 509 in Stavanger and Rv 706 in Trondheim.

National roads are supposed to be funded by the government. However, in reality the cities have been forced to accept toll roads to get any kind of funding from the government.

Though not stated publicly, at least the previous government made it pretty clear that cities wouldn't get any funding from the state, and hence not any new road without accepting toll roads as a part of the funding.

Why Rob73 is talking about municipality debts I have no idea.

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Old July 16th, 2014, 05:20 AM   #2885
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I wonder if Norway is 2nd in Europe on a rank of total length of road tunnels (Italy is first for sure)
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #2886
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Posted this in the Norwegian sub forum:

http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/ny-...o/8455816.html

Basically an article showing a possible east-west motorway connecting central east to Stavanger, Haugesund and Bergen.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:50 AM   #2887
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Roads have to be financed somehow. The percentage which is user-financed seems haphazard, negotiated project for project. The arguably most important infrastructure in Scandinavia, the link Malmö-Copenhagen, the "Channel Tunnel" which connects Norway/Sweden with Denmark/the continent, is 100% user-financed. The governments of Sweden and Danmark put in critically important loan guarantees, but no money.

Once user-financing was rare in Norway, you just had to wait for central and/or local government to pay for it, now it seems the rule. The argument is similar as for credit, with user-financing you can get your things now, while paying for them.

Most tolls are dismantled when the road is paid for, but sometimes they remain to finance/subsidise the next road, or for city planning/subsidising public transport or other non-car purposes. Only the last one, which doesn't benefit drivers directly, can be said to "punish" drivers, though hopefully they get an indirect benefit in less traffic. There are also some cases where a toll road finance another road that the driver in question won't use or benefit from, but I think those cases are rare.

I have no overview of toll roads, current or past, the percentage of user financing, and the degree they have/had financed other projects than the road they were on.

I think the toll roads around Oslo has paid itself off or is in the process of doing so, I don't know about Trondheim and Bergen. That it is the case with the largest cities isn't surprising. They have the biggest traffic/car problems, they also have most traffic making toll road financing feasible, with many cars at a modest fee.

I don't know about Molde, but as a minor city it sounded surprising that the tolls would finance anything but roads, and from what I could read about the "Moldepakke" (Molde package) they won't, this is pure user financing of new roads.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #2888
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Quote:
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Norway as a country is very sparsely populated. It has hundreds of mostly undisturbed forests and quiet fjords.

There is no need to fuss about losing a couple hundred hectares of forests in the south for development or going berserk over the amount of land taken over by paving new highway lanes. There is also no need to pack everyone up and high in central Oslo as if it were Hong Kong either (I'm not saying it shouldn't have high-rises, just that it shouldn't offer multi-family buildings as the only or primary options for city dwellers).
Oh, but I do think 54°26′S 3°24′E has a point. This isn't just some forests in an underpopulated country, this is a massive ring of wilderness around Oslo, dwarfing the urban, suburban, and rural areas. Look at the map again. Dark gray is urban, light gray suburbs, orange rural, green is non-protected forest (or possibly semi-rural and rural respectively), blue is water and light indigo protected forest. There is far more indigo than shades of gray, and the population is growing as fast as you can find in any part of Europe.

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However, it is from time to time debated whether these boundaries should be kept holy, as the result seems that farmland and satellite suburbs are developed instead. In Norway we have a lot more forest than farmland.

It definitely needs to be regularly discussed, the whole area could easily fit inside the Oslo city borders if the forest was razed. I don't think anyone is proposing that, but e.g. the non-forest wedges of Maridalen and Sørkedalen could be expanded north and widened.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 10:22 AM   #2889
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Copenhagen followed a development of "fingers" stretching into the countryside as urban corridors, while preserving nearby open spaces. They could do that with Oslo as well, to relieve some of the pressure of population growth.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:25 PM   #2890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Roads have to be financed somehow. The percentage which is user-financed seems haphazard, negotiated project for project. The arguably most important infrastructure in Scandinavia, the link Malmö-Copenhagen, the "Channel Tunnel" which connects Norway/Sweden with Denmark/the continent, is 100% user-financed. The governments of Sweden and Danmark put in critically important loan guarantees, but no money.
That's only one road though. To what degree we use toll financing is completely unique in the world.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #2891
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How efficient is plate-recognition toll collection from foreign-plated cars?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #2892
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How efficient is plate-recognition toll collection from foreign-plated cars?
I have never heard about problems surrounding it. What there are reported problems with however is getting the money after they have identified the cars.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #2893
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I have yet to receive my toll bill from my trip to Norway last month, but I've read it could take up to 6 months before you get the bill.

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To what degree we use toll financing is completely unique in the world.
The Netherlands will use a similar financing structure for two new motorways, which will be partially funded through tolls.

The most efficient way to fund transportation projects is through taxes. If you use private concessions, you also have to pay the market rate for interest, while tax collection is a cheaper way to finance projects (especially if the government would have a balanced budget). Another option is to use government loans and repay them with tolls like they do in Denmark. That way they can get cheap credit on the market.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 05:54 PM   #2894
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They don't send a bill until it's gone 2 months or you've surpassed 500 NOK bill. Which ever comes first. But I guess it takes a few more months for foreigners to be tracked down.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #2895
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Are there parking lots and/or ferries in Norway that use the same technology of plate-recognition toll collection?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #2896
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Are there parking lots and/or ferries in Norway that use the same technology of plate-recognition toll collection?
Not that I'm aware of.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 10:16 PM   #2897
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E39, Bergen

A video of E39 through Bergen.

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Old July 17th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #2898
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I have never heard about problems surrounding it. What there are reported problems with however is getting the money after they have identified the cars.
Actually, there has been a bit of a problem identifying what conutry some license-plates are from. I remember reading some years ago that swedes who had'nt been to Norway in years was billed. It turned out it was Lithauanian (or Latvian) vehicles which has the same number of letters and digits that had passed. Guess that problem is solved now.
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Old July 17th, 2014, 03:09 AM   #2899
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A lot of activity here now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Norway as a country is very sparsely populated. It has hundreds of mostly undisturbed forests and quiet fjords.

There is no need to fuss about losing a couple hundred hectares of forests in the south for development or going berserk over the amount of land taken over by paving new highway lanes. There is also no need to pack everyone up and high in central Oslo as if it were Hong Kong either (I'm not saying it shouldn't have high-rises, just that it shouldn't offer multi-family buildings as the only or primary options for city dwellers).
Not by any means a very densily populated country, Norwegians live more densily than you might realize, as in practice, most of the population live along a rather narrow strip of land along the coast of southern Norway up to Trondheim. Nevertheless, I do not think the discussion is about preserving forest for its own sake, but optimize the quality of living as well as keeping the overall health of the planet reasonably in mind. Quality of living for many Norwegians according to dominating public mindset is to have access to some sort of nature, a vivid urban environment, and minimizing the time used for commuting. For a city of the size of Oslo and above, this is simply not compatible with endless suburbia. After having lived in large cities dominated by suburbs in both the US and Australia, I must say that I share this opinion. However, as Jax interesting post pointed out, there are many ways in which a city like Oslo can be developed. Personally I believe a comprimize must be done in Oslo at some point where some of the forest has to go, taking just a few km of the forest will free huge areas. In my opinion, this should be done in a highly regulated and controlled manner, and in order to minimize travel needs, I would prefer forest fingers into the city to urban fingers into the forest.


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Well, Living in Switzerland, which is considered to be the highest income country in the world, I must say that cost of living is similar, or even higher in Norway. But, purchasing power is on average higher in Switzerland. That's due to the fact that your country taxes heavily its inhabitants, so at the end they have available around half of their gross income, which gives an average net income comparable to that of Denmark - another "welfare state", but with lower cost of living.
IMHO, they are not that rich on average when taking into consideration cost of living, taxes, plus "unique" system of tolls for so small cities (by international comparison).
Deviating a little off topic, I have question:
Is the health care system totally free for residents/citizens (that's mean you don't have to pay anything when visiting a doctor)?
Are they lots of people on welfare?
IMO, a good way of measuring the income of a country is GDP per capita based on purchasing power parity (PPP). In most of such rankings, Norway is about 20 % higher than Switzerland. I am not big fan of the Norwegian tax system, and would like to go more in the direction of Switzerland, but it should be pointed out that the Norwegian level of income taxation is not particularly high compared with the rest of Europe, and less than for instance Denmark as you mention:

Norway has quite high taxes on tobacco, alcohole, and cars (the latter again beaten by Denmark). Of course, that more tax is paid does not necessarily less welfare for the people if they pay for public services, so again I come back to that GDP per capita based on purchasing power parity (PPP) is a sensible metrics.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I wonder if Norway is 2nd in Europe on a rank of total length of road tunnels (Italy is first for sure)
Last time I checked, Norway had 1060 county and national road tunnels, and also some municipal ones, but only 498 tunnels are longer than 500 m, and this category covers a length of 578 km. No clue what Italy or any other European country has. I think the total length of Norwegian hydropower tunnels is much larger.
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Are there parking lots and/or ferries in Norway that use the same technology of plate-recognition toll collection?
Yes, at least Flakk-Rørvik ferry across the Trondheim fjord.

Btw, E16 was closed last week due to a landslide between Gudvangen and Stalheim:
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 17th, 2014 at 03:15 AM.
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Old July 17th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #2900
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and cars (the latter again beaten by Denmark).
Not completely true. Denmark have different taxation which tends to favor different attributes. This means that some cars are cheaper in Norway and some cars are cheaper in Denmark. Generally speaking, luxurious, powerful and expensive cars are slightly cheaper in Denmark while more "ordinary" cars tends to be cheaper here in Norway. And we have of course the tax incentives for evs too which makes them especially much cheaper. The taxation on the usage and ownership of cars is general lower in Denmark.
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