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Old July 24th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #321
54°26′S 3°24′E
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Yes, Østfold is finally getting a decent road network, its about time, the E6 used to be a two-lane country road that made tight turns along farm property lines just a few decades ago. Hopefully we will see some investment on the other main links of the country as well in the decades to come.

Ironically high summer traffic (pressumably created by city dwellers from Oslo (like my self) or Trondheim) would be a good thing for rv 3, as it will open the eyes of decision makers for the need for investments here. The real dangerous periods of this road is however at less trafficated periods (by private cars) during night and outside the vacation periods, when the the trucks are dominating but some people (often it seems like most) are really speeding recklessly, and winter, when many trucks are not equipped for this rather narrow winter road. Of course, the daily use is also by far most important in the economic sense for this road.

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 24th, 2008 at 12:01 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2008, 11:07 PM   #322
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Motorway Constructions E6, Section Hamar – Oslo – Svinesund (Border N/S)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Þróndeimr View Post
Nice pics berlinwroclaw, hope you enjoyed your trip. E18 looks like a dream to drive on compared to what we have up here. .
Thank you, it is really nice to be in Norway. When motorway construction will continue, the way I saw last visit, one day your dream will come true

Here my report about Motorway E6 constructions, section Hamer – Oslo – Svinesund (Border N/S). Positive is that within a few years the whole section will be a motorway. But why had to take it so long in this rich oil country? Oslo is one of the last European economical areas without motorway connection to the rest of Europe. Anyhow: the soon-completed motorway will certainly stimulate foreigners like me to visit Norway again. Here are the photos taken on 21 July 2008:

[IMG]http://i36.************/20upts6.jpg[/IMG]
Start of motorway construction near Sørli

[IMG]http://i36.************/6svsqt.jpg[/IMG]
Distance table Oslo 107 km

[IMG]http://i35.************/sypa9l.jpg[/IMG]
Interchange Road 222 Tangen

[IMG]http://i36.************/154u0z6.jpg[/IMG]
Distance table Oslo 100 km

[IMG]http://i34.************/33mv3x3.jpg[/IMG]
Existing motorway near Gardermoen airport with typical Swedish “egg-cutter” rails.

[IMG]http://i33.************/dyw4ee.jpg[/IMG]
Tunnel construction on Motorway Ring Oslo

[IMG]http://i37.************/fw6dz5.jpg[/IMG]
Just completed motorway section south of Olso. Note the West European safety rails as replacement of unsafe Swedish “egg-cutter” rails.

More info: (Norwegian language)
http://www.vegvesen.no/cs/Satellite?...FPage%2FVPside
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Old July 25th, 2008, 12:12 PM   #323
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Thanks for the pics, berlinwroclaw. As you can see from the discussion above you can be glad that you did not venture further north than Kolomoen south of Hamar, as the way northwards is a veritable mine field....

Seriously, I think you will be very dissapointed if you come back in a few years and expect everything has changed. At least there is very little in the current proposal for the next transport plan, except finishing the projects that already has started (i.e. the sections you have shown here plus 40 km or so in Agder in far southern Norway and a little bit in Vestfold southwest of Oslo). Even in a 30 year perspective, this is all what the road authorities envisage:

Motorway=red, motorway "on the cheap", i.e. 19 m: yellow. Unfortunately, this will take 50 years to complete with the current funding, and still none of our 4 biggest cities will be connected with each other...

It is quite strange to see countries like poor Namibia boasting their motorways network here, while ours still is so incomplete, but it is all about priorities. There were some grand plans in the 50s and 60s, but the government decided that other areas were more important for the economy. Worse however, is that only one party really (which IMO is quite irresponsible in most other areas) says they are going to do something with the situation in the years to come.
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TYes. So? The E6 is in a class of its own in the Norwegian psyché;
OK, I could not resist, was it something like this you had in mind? E6, DDE:
Song
Lyrics and even ringtone....

(Sorry foreigners, this song is probably completely meaningless for you, but it is about a truck driver going nonstop from Hamburg to Bodø in Northern Norway to get to his newborn baby, by one of the tackiest bands of Norway, proud product of Namsos, Trøndelag. Safe or legal driving is obviously not an issue, the trip is more than 2300 km....)

But you see, they sing that E6 is "den strakaste vegen" (the straightest way), so the national character won't be broken if they iron out the Dombås wrinkle.....
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Old July 25th, 2008, 04:10 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
19 July 2008 I passed motorway E18, section Mysen - Spydeberg. This section is part of the connection Stockholm-Oslo. My first impression entering Norway was a bad one. I had the opinion the Swedish part was better. After entering the motorway E18, I changed my opinion. Construction is going on to complete the whole road from Oslo to the Swedish border to motorway parameters. I could not find any indication of road construction on the Swedish side.

[IMG]http://i37.************/2v34fmu.jpg[/IMG]
Distance table Oslo 61 km

[IMG]http://i35.************/2hxtuds.jpg[/IMG]
Interchange road 128

[IMG]http://i38.************/2dh9xzo.jpg[/IMG]
Toll station Spydeberg
Only part of the E18 Oslo-border is going to be upgraded to motorway. Others are being upgraded (and have been) but not to motorway (there is one stretch that was made less windy and is 80 km/h, right near the motorway stretch that opened last year). On the Swedish side there is some construction going on: 2+1 for a few km right after the border opening later this year; a few km of motorway to the east of Karlstad opening in September; 15+ km of motorway west of Örebro opening this fall; and a few km near Västerås opening this fall, with another stretch near Västerås opening in 2010. Those are the ones going on right now anyway.
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Old July 26th, 2008, 02:43 AM   #325
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Great stuff, I´d love to drive Norvegian highways and roads.
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Old July 26th, 2008, 04:05 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Thanks for the pics, berlinwroclaw. As you can see from the discussion above you can be glad that you did not venture further north than Kolomoen south of Hamar, as the way northwards is a veritable mine field....
Thanks! I continued the E6 to the north, all the way till Otta.

[IMG]http://i38.************/2rqipms.jpg[/IMG]
E6 is 2x1 or 2+1 road with viaducts till north of Lillehammer

[IMG]http://i34.************/1562zao.jpg[/IMG]
End of 2+1 road with viaducts

After Lillehammer the viaducts and 2+1 parts disappeared, but the lanes were much about the same. Some parts were narrower than on the photos, but it were only short sections.

[IMG]http://i38.************/fje2k9.jpg[/IMG]
E6 at 29 km south of Otta

After Otta I went to Norway’s tourist nr 1 attraction: Geiranger fjord. Near the Geiranger fjord I had true challenges on a small road with an altitude difference of more than 1000 m.

[IMG]http://i37.************/zx04qt.jpg[/IMG]
Exit to road 63 to Geiranger

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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
still none of our 4 biggest cities will be connected with each other...
In my opinion Stavanger, Bergen and Trondheim should be connected by motorway with the motorway network in Oslo within 10 years.

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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Seriously, I think you will be very dissapointed if you come back in a few years and expect everything has changed. At least there is very little in the current proposal for the next transport plan, except finishing the projects that already has started (i.e. the sections you have shown here plus 40 km or so in Agder in far southern Norway and a little bit in Vestfold southwest of Oslo). Even in a 30 year perspective, this is all what the road authorities envisage:
Infrastructure constructions are not only initated by 30 years perspectives, but also by requests of transport, industry, safety organisations, etc. With a fast growing economy and growing number of tourists and sufficient resources I see enough possiblities. E.g. by starting a lobby with transport organisations or local governments.
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Old July 26th, 2008, 05:10 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
After Otta I went to Norway’s tourist nr 1 attraction: Geiranger fjord. Near the Geiranger fjord I had true challenges on a small road with an altitude difference of more than 1000 m.
This is among the more spectacular areas in Southern Norway, with quite a few such roads. I hope you had a nice trip!
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In my opinion Stavanger, Bergen and Trondheim should be connected by motorway with the motorway network in Oslo within 10 years.
That won't happen, I am afraid, even the most enthusiastic campaigners are calling for a network in a 20 years perspective. First the politicians have to agree to actually go for it. Then there would probably be a lot of debate about routes etc. in good old Norwegian tradition.. And given the topography of Norway, some of the projects will be quite challenging and requires long planning and building periods. I guess it is doable in 10 years only of they start constructing everywhere at once. This will require a large influx of foreign entrepeneurs, which may actually make some of the projects more expensive since Norwegian firms seem to be in a class of its own when it comes to tunnel drilling.

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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Infrastructure constructions are not only initated by 30 years perspectives, but also by requests of transport, industry, safety organisations, etc. With a fast growing economy and growing number of tourists and sufficient resources I see enough possiblities. E.g. by starting a lobby with transport organisations or local governments.
True, and this is of course also happening. The problem is that there are so many counterforces. However, things may improve a little after the national elections in a year.

BTW: A Norwegian infrastructure debate exploded on the Scandinavian forums recently (they are in English).
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Old July 30th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #328
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New E6 between Trondheim and Stjørdal will cost a billion NOK more than estimated.
E6 Øst vil koste én milliard ekstra >> Adressa.no article (in Norwegian)

New estimates reveal that the new E6 will cost around 3.5 billion NOK, not 2.425 billion NOK as originally estimated.

685 million NOK will be payed by the state, while 2.8 billion NOK will have to be payed in toll-stations.

Most of the E6 is already completed, its just the 5km in Stjørdal and 4.5km from downtown Trondheim and out to Grilstad which have to be done.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #329
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So, that's like a hundred million euro's extra for 9.5 kilometers?
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Old July 30th, 2008, 11:54 AM   #330
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So, that's like a hundred million euro's extra for 9.5 kilometers?
Yes, 125 million Euros more to be exact. Stjørdal-Trondheim E6 is more or less completed (40km long), exept from the 4.5km in Trondheim and 5km in Stjørdal.

Its the 4.5km in Trondheim which will be most expencive, 2.7 billion NOK (335 million Euros) for 4.5km of road. It will be 2x2 lane road though.



Problem in Trondheim is that they will have to build a pretty expencive tunnel (2.4km long). First they have to move several (10-20 buildings) large wooden houses which is 100-150 years old and preserved. Then they have to remove a lot of quick clay which is extremly unstabile and dangerous and make the tunnel through it. And its not easy when its going to be a 2x2 lane road.

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Old July 30th, 2008, 02:47 PM   #331
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Yes, 125 million Euros more to be exact. Stjørdal-Trondheim E6 is more or less completed (40km long), exept from the 4.5km in Trondheim and 5km in Stjørdal.
"Completed", yes, but with an already outdated standard since it was built in the 80s/90s. The E6 between Trondheim and Stjørdal carries an ADT around 15 000. I am not sure when data is from, which is significant since the road according to the article has increased with a whopping 20 % the last 2.5 years. This road should be a 4-lane motorway the whole way according to the Norwegian standards, not the 2/3-lane, partially divided road we see today. If the current traffic growth continues, the road will have a traffic of 36 000 AADT in 15 years when the end legs are paid down....

I am not sure what Trøndelag does to deserve so little infrastructure money from the central government.

At the eastern end of the 2.4 km tunnel in the Trondheim project to start next year, there will btw also be a quite complex intersection. As far as I have understood, it will be three levels, with two of the levels (the road leading to the current E6, which will become a PT route only, and the new e6) underground. Thus, this road is a little bit more complex than an average countryside motorway....

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 30th, 2008 at 02:56 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:31 PM   #332
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Here's a map i made from gulesiders map, showing road conditions in the Oslo area, red are motorways, yellow is 4 lane expressroads, orange is motorway under construction and purple are 2 lane expressroads.
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Last edited by Ingenioren; July 30th, 2008 at 03:39 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:41 PM   #333
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But you see, they sing that E6 is "den strakaste vegen" (the straightest way), so the national character won't be broken if they iron out the Dombås wrinkle.....
As you hopefully realised, I was sick to effing death of the continued deterioration of our "debate" and couldn't be bothered to continue. A few days on, however, a brief summary:

1. 54°26′S 3°24′E;23123436 insists that the rv 3 should be the E6 in the future, because it's about 40 kms shorter than the current alignment. I say that it will never happen, because total traffic volumes, history and population density easily trumps distance and travel time for a tiny minority of the road's users. For those of you with a particular interest in AADT figures, look at the maps and tables in the aforementioned links. They're understandable even for non-Norwegian speakers (I suggest you compare places on a similar latitude, for instance Lillehammer vs Rena or Otta vs Hanestad (Hanekampen, Rendal kommune...)
2. 54°26′S 3°24′E;23123436 insists that the difference in travel time Oslo-Trondheim is more than 1 hour, without providing a shred of evidence to support this (actually, the only evidence provided supports my viewpoint of a 30-40 min difference...). My claim is that the difference is about 30 minutes (supported by logic and maths...) and I also say that when taking APPROVED projects in both corridors into consideration, this will be reduced by 15-25 mins along the E6 (motorway along Mjøsa plus 2+1 with a guardrail in Gudbrandsdalen) - the insinuation being that more motorists would use a safer and quicker E6.

That's where things stand. We're not going to agree, even though my main point never has been to "agree", but to point out the futility of the "E6 in Østerdalen" idea. 54°26′S 3°24′E;23123436 is not going to agree with me on this either, but I don't really care. This is rather boring stuff, and I'm not going to take it further. My next entry will be regarding the E134, and since there are high-flying ideas regarding this road as well, you never know what might happen...
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:48 PM   #334
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Here's a map i made from gulesiders map, showing road conditions in the Oslo area, red are motorways, yellow is 4 lane expressroads, orange is motorway under construction and purple are 2 lane expressroads.
? The darker red are most certainly not motorways, and at least a few of the yellow roads are 2-, not 4-lane.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 05:31 PM   #335
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As you hopefully realised, I was sick to effing death of the continued deterioration of our "debate" and couldn't be bothered to continue.
Understandable, but why the need to misrepresent my arguments?

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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
A few days on, however, a brief summary:

1. 54°26′S 3°24′E;23123436 insists that the rv 3 should be the E6 in the future, because it's about 40 kms shorter than the current alignment. I say that it will never happen, because total traffic volumes, history and population density easily trumps distance and travel time for a tiny minority of the road's users. For those of you with a particular interest in AADT figures, look at the maps and tables in the aforementioned links. They're understandable even for non-Norwegian speakers (I suggest you compare places on a similar latitude, for instance Lillehammer vs Rena or Otta vs Hanestad (Hanekampen, Rendal kommune...)
What it seems we disagree on is whether E6 should be the road connecting the southern and northern regions of Norway together, or a road serving the local traffic around Lillehammer and Hamar.

Although the transit traffic in AADT is relatively modest, the heavy traffic is quite high, and with an improved link, the passanger traffic will undoubtly also increase. Remember that TRD currently has 4 M pax, with most of the traffic directed towards Oslo. With improvement of the road connection Trondheim-Oslo to European level (whenever that happens) driving times of 450/120<4 hours should be possible, making the car a viable alternative for more people.

Although it is really it beside the point on my part: I have never argued that the E6 in parts (roughly 50%) mostly has higher traffic, but you are tweeking the facts when you argue that Lillehammer and Rena are similar points on the route. The distance from Ulsberg-Lillehammer (260 km) is as far as Ulsberg-Elverum. South of both cities the traffic is around 15 000 AADT.
The distance Ulsberg-Rena (4200 AADT) is 230 km, roughly corresponding in length to Ulsberg-Tretten (6000 AADT). Ulsberg-Hanestad (around 2000 AADT), Hanestad "coincidentally" being one of the least trafficated parts of rv 3, corresponds in length to Ulsberg-Sel (3700 AADT). A few tens of km further to the north, however, the traffic on E6 and rv 3 is similar, except that the latter has many times as high truck and transit traffic, wheras regional, local and regional traffic dominates E6.


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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
2. 54°26′S 3°24′E;23123436 insists that the difference in travel time Oslo-Trondheim is more than 1 hour, without providing a shred of evidence to support this (actually, the only evidence provided supports my viewpoint of a 30-40 min difference...). My claim is that the difference is about 30 minutes (supported by logic and maths...) and I also say that when taking
Your own calculations said 44 minutes, and Visveg said 41 minutes, both based on speed limits alone. We both agree that the E6 partly has heavier traffic, particularly during the summer the slow moving RV and mobile home traffic can be very annoying, and due to all the curves there are fewer passing possibities. Hence, the actual delay experienced by both me and the transit truck drivers is not exactly taken from thin air. Where you get your 30 minutes from remains to be explaned.

As far as I have understood, speed cameras measuring speed during a distance will be introduced on E6. Since most people then propably will drive well below the speed limit, further delays are to be expected in Gudbrandsdalen.
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
APPROVED projects in both corridors into consideration, this will be reduced by 15-25 mins along the E6 (motorway along Mjøsa plus 2+1 with a guardrail in Gudbrandsdalen) - the insinuation being that more motorists would use a safer and quicker E6.
This is simply wrong. According to the current proposal of the new national transport plan, the only thing that will be built in Gudbrandsdalen within 2019 is Tingberg-Tretten. In the same plan, also the considerably longer Løten-Elverum is in on rv 3. In addition there will be smaller enhancements on that route. Your 15-25 minutes is only in a dream world, so far. In the longer run, there are at least as many possibilities to shorten the current rv 3 as E6. In any case it will take a long time and much money before E6 is competetive with rv 3 Oslo-Trondheim, there is 1 hour (or 30 minutes, as you insist) time lag, and the truck drivers will never choose the current E6 due to all the hills, they cannot drive at full motorway speed anyway.

Further, and more important for me: Thinking a few decades ahead, E6 along Gudbrandsdalenb can never be a full standard route without serious environmental implications, both in the valley itself, where a motorway will be quite ugly, and across the mountains, where there are issues like threatened reindeers etc. Whatever you do, Gudbrandsdalen is also doomed to have more curves, ups and downs compared with the alternative. In Østerdalen, building a proper road will both be significantly cheaper and more environmently friendly.

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 30th, 2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 05:38 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Here's a map i made from gulesiders map, showing road conditions in the Oslo area, red are motorways, yellow is 4 lane expressroads, orange is motorway under construction and purple are 2 lane expressroads.
Thanks for the map.

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? The darker red are most certainly not motorways, and at least a few of the yellow roads are 2-, not 4-lane.
Note that there is a difference between yellow and orange, and light red and dark red (purple)
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Old July 30th, 2008, 05:41 PM   #337
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"Completed", yes, but with an already outdated standard since it was built in the 80s/90s. The E6 between Trondheim and Stjørdal carries an ADT around 15 000. I am not sure when data is from, which is significant since the road according to the article has increased with a whopping 20 % the last 2.5 years. This road should be a 4-lane motorway the whole way according to the Norwegian standards, not the 2/3-lane, partially divided road we see today. If the current traffic growth continues, the road will have a traffic of 36 000 AADT in 15 years when the end legs are paid down....

I am not sure what Trøndelag does to deserve so little infrastructure money from the central government.

At the eastern end of the 2.4 km tunnel in the Trondheim project to start next year, there will btw also be a quite complex intersection. As far as I have understood, it will be three levels, with two of the levels (the road leading to the current E6, which will become a PT route only, and the new e6) underground. Thus, this road is a little bit more complex than an average countryside motorway....
True, that road is congested, esp. in the last two years as the article sais. And most of the road is just 2 lanes, with just a few km's with 1+2 or 2+2. Be prepared to drive 70km/h most of the road (especially in the tunnels - 1/3 of the road is tunnels) if you drive it during the day.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 09:09 PM   #338
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Understandable, but why the need to misrepresent my arguments?
Which has never happened. No need to get nasty.

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What it seems we disagree on is whether E6 should be the road connecting the southern and northern regions of Norway together, or a road serving the local traffic around Lillehammer and Hamar..
No. You disagree with the official view on where the E6 should be. I only provide the reasons why your viewpoint won't become reality. I don't care either way.

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Although it is really it beside the point on my part: I have never argued that the E6 in parts (roughly 50%) mostly has higher traffic,.
This is something that truly ticks me off, the way you misrepresent facts. Look at the AADT map: The E6 just dips below 3500 north of Otta whereas the rv 3 does the same north of Rena. Considerable difference, don't you think? And as long as you exclude the Dovre plateau where the total AADT is slightly higher than the Kvikne, slightly lower than Østerdalen north of Koppag. Again: Check the tables.

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but you are tweeking the facts when you argue that Lillehammer and Rena are similar points on the route. The distance from Ulsberg-Lillehammer (260 km) is as far as Ulsberg-Elverum. South of both cities the traffic is around 15 000 AADT..
Read my post again. Latitude. Since we both agree that the road through Østerdalen is some 40 kms shorter than Gudbrandsdalen, I think it's a reasonable way of evaluating things. And: Kolomoen-Lillehammer is 80 kms, some 24% of the total 330 kms. Kolomoen-Rena 62 kms, some 21% of the 290 kms. If you really want, we could compare Vingrom with Rena instead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
The distance Ulsberg-Rena (4200 AADT) is 230 km, roughly corresponding in length to Ulsberg-Tretten (6000 AADT). Ulsberg-Hanestad (around 2000 AADT), Hanestad "coincidentally" being one of the least trafficated parts of rv 3, corresponds in length to Ulsberg-Sel (3700 AADT). A few tens of km further to the north, however, the traffic on E6 and rv 3 is similar, except that the latter has many times as high truck and transit traffic, wheras regional, local and regional traffic dominates E6..
Again, I divided the sections, taking into consideration the difference in distance between E6. A point you suddenly don't want to consider when it doesn't support your argument, even making sure to start counting at the end which by far favours your argument the most... To your other point: If you can prove to me that the traffic some place north of Hanestad suddenly increases and decreases and why the HGV proportion still remain roughly the same (294 at Kvikne, 298 at Hanestad), please feel free to do so. If you can't, stop meddling with the facts, at least. It's rather annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Your own calculations said 44 minutes, and Visveg said 41 minutes, both based on speed limits alone. We both agree that the E6 partly has heavier traffic, particularly during the summer the slow moving RV and mobile home traffic can be very annoying, and due to all the curves there are fewer passing possibities. Hence, the actual delay experienced by both me and the transit truck drivers is not exactly taken from thin air. Where you get your 30 minutes from remains to be explaned..
My calculations had nothing to do with speed limits, but with a reasonable travel speed. And apart from the Oppdal-Ulsberg and the Ringebu-Otta sections (totalling ca 85 kms), the overtaking possibilities doesn't particularly favour Østerdalen. As I said, I thought we were done, but I can't just let this be. So here they are, in detail:
E6:
Kolomoen-Biri 48 kms. Expected driving speed 95 kph, due to proper road and a few 2+1 sections. Travel time 26.57 mins.
Biri-Lillehammer S 29 kms. Expected speed down to 90, due to fewer overtaking possibilities. Travel time 19.20.
Lillehammer S-Ringebu 55 kms. Expected speed further down to 85, due to a few speed cameras as well... Travel time 38.45.
Ringebu-Otta 55 kms. Worst section, several 50 and 60 kph zones, so 70 average. Time 47.35.
Otta-Dombås 45 kms. 80 kph average easy, even without the previous 90 section. Time 33.45.
Dombås-Kongsvoll 43 kms. 100 average across the plateau is easy, I'm willing to go down to 95 due to the ascent. Time 27.40.
Kongsvoll-Oppdal 37 kms. To humour you, 80 average (I've never done it slower than 85-90). Time 27.45.
Oppdal-Ulsberg 24 kms . 70 average, again mainly to humour you. Time 20.35.
Total travel time 4 hours 2 mins 20 secs or thereabouts.

Rv 3
Kolomoen-Elverum 30 kms. Average speed 85, 100 for the first half, 70 for the rest. Time 21.15.
Elverum-Rena 32 kms. Average 80, due to a few 60 and 70 limits. Time 24.05.
Rena-Koppang 46 kms. Average 85. A few limited sections, and not Østerdalen at its very best. Time 32.27.
Koppang-Alvdal 87 kms. Average 95. With the current 80 limit, I'm not going much faster than that. Time 54.57.
Alvdal-Tynset 23 kms. Average 85, due to more curves and bans on overtaking. Time 14.57.
Tynset-Kvikne 49 kms 85 average, due to a- and descent. Time 34.37.
Kvikne-Ulsberg 25 kms, average 75. Due to the Trøndelag part, even that may be stretching it. Time 20.00.
Total travel time 3 hours 22 mins 25 seconds. Approximately.

Comments? Feel free, but make them precise. Why is the average wrong on a given section, why, and what would be a better estimate? Otherwise, we're more than through. Btw, my actual travel speed would normally be slightly higher on a few sections in Gudbrandsdalen. Which is from where at least some of the final 10 min would come.

This is averages. Of course, over easter, the winter break and in parts of the summer months, the E6 is too busy to manage such speeds. But that wasn't the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
This is simply wrong. According to the current proposal of the new national transport plan, the only thing that will be built in Gudbrandsdalen within 2019 is Tingberg-Tretten. In the same plan, also the considerably longer Løten-Elverum is in on rv 3. In addition there will be smaller enhancements on that route. Your 15-25 minutes is only in a dream world, so far. In the longer run, there are at least as many possibilities to shorten the current rv 3 as E6. In any case it will take a long time and much money before E6 is competetive with rv 3 Oslo-Trondheim, there is 1 hour (or 30 minutes, as you insist) time lag, and the truck drivers will never choose the current E6 due to all the hills, they cannot drive at full motorway speed anyway.

Further, and more important for me: Thinking a few decades ahead, E6 along Gudbrandsdalenb can never be a full standard route without serious environmental implications, both in the valley itself, where a motorway will be quite ugly, and across the mountains, where there are issues like threatened reindeers etc. Whatever you do, Gudbrandsdalen is also doomed to have more curves, ups and downs compared with the alternative. In Østerdalen, building a proper road will both be significantly cheaper and more environmently friendly.
There are approved plans on a municipal level for the remainder of the stretch - excluding Biri-Lillehammer. True, funds aren't there yet, but it's only a matter of time (the politicians just have to agree on how high the tolls should be...). I'll get back to rv 3 and plans a little later, but afaik, the only thing that is locally approved, is the very busy Løten-Elverum section. Besides, even looking decades into the future, there will NEVER EVER be a Oslo-Trondheim motorway, neither in Østerdalen nor in Gudbrandsdalen.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 01:39 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Which has never happened. No need to get nasty.
1. "without providing a shred of evidence to support this" I believe was a fairly strong statement after all that I have written on the subject, particularly since you still have not been able to support your own claim (30 minutes) in any way.

2. "because total traffic volumes, history and population density easily trumps distance and travel time for a tiny minority of the road's users"
I believe I have clearly demonstrated that the transit traffic is NOT a tiny minority for a large part of the road, say 50 %.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
This is something that truly ticks me off, the way you misrepresent facts. Look at the AADT map: The E6 just dips below 3500 north of Otta whereas the rv 3 does the same north of Rena. Considerable difference, don't you think? And as long as you exclude the Dovre plateau where the total AADT is slightly higher than the Kvikne, slightly lower than Østerdalen north of Koppag. Again: Check the tables.
Exactly where is the misrepresentation of facts? I said approximately, and I did want to go into detail because I have already done so several times. The fact is that the Ulsberg-Otta distance is 150 km, almost exactly half the distance Ulsberg-Kolomoen (rv 3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
Read my post again. Latitude. Since we both agree that the road through Østerdalen is some 40 kms shorter than Gudbrandsdalen, I think it's a reasonable way of evaluating things. And: Kolomoen-Lillehammer is 80 kms, some 24% of the total 330 kms. Kolomoen-Rena 62 kms, some 21% of the 290 kms. If you really want, we could compare Vingrom with Rena instead...
Of course I read latitude, but who cares about that? Only the length of the road matters when you drive, and given that E6 is 40 km longer, using latitude is clearly a misrepresentation of relevant facts. Since we are talking about road sections with little traffic, both agreeing that the highly trafficated parts needs an upgrade anyway, going from the south does not make any sense either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
Again, I divided the sections, taking into consideration the difference in distance between E6. A point you suddenly don't want to consider when it doesn't support your argument, even making sure to start counting at the end which by far favours your argument the most.
See my argument above. The point is that a longer travel simply is not a favorable aspect of a road, where have I suggested otherwise? Following your logic you can let E6 go back and forth to Gjøvik and make ringroads around Hamar and Lillehammer. It would give E6 longer stretches with hgher traffic, but what is the point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
.. To your other point: If you can prove to me that the traffic some place north of Hanestad suddenly increases and decreases and why the HGV proportion still remain roughly the same (294 at Kvikne, 298 at Hanestad), please feel free to do so. If you can't, stop meddling with the facts, at least. It's rather annoying.
The AADT, which was what we were discussing, is higher in the Tynseth/Alvdal region. The truck traffic, as we have been through several times, is almost entirely transit traffic, and not many stops in Tynseth/Alvdal except perhaps for a break.

Now, can we leave this? Since we:
1. Agree that E6 Gudbrandsdalen/Lillehammer in parts have higher traffic
2. Agree that we disagree whether this is important for the question at hand.
I don't see any point in discussing this further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
My calculations had nothing to do with speed limits, but with a reasonable travel speed. And apart from the Oppdal-Ulsberg and the Ringebu-Otta sections (totalling ca 85 kms), the overtaking possibilities doesn't particularly favour Østerdalen. As I said, I thought we were done, but I can't just let this be. So here they are, in detail:
E6:
Kolomoen-Biri 48 kms. Expected driving speed 95 kph, due to proper road and a few 2+1 sections. Travel time 26.57 mins.
Biri-Lillehammer S 29 kms. Expected speed down to 90, due to fewer overtaking possibilities. Travel time 19.20.
Lillehammer S-Ringebu 55 kms. Expected speed further down to 85, due to a few speed cameras as well... Travel time 38.45.
Ringebu-Otta 55 kms. Worst section, several 50 and 60 kph zones, so 70 average. Time 47.35.
Otta-Dombås 45 kms. 80 kph average easy, even without the previous 90 section. Time 33.45.
Dombås-Kongsvoll 43 kms. 100 average across the plateau is easy, I'm willing to go down to 95 due to the ascent. Time 27.40.
Kongsvoll-Oppdal 37 kms. To humour you, 80 average (I've never done it slower than 85-90). Time 27.45.
Oppdal-Ulsberg 24 kms . 70 average, again mainly to humour you. Time 20.35.
Total travel time 4 hours 2 mins 20 secs or thereabouts.

Rv 3
Kolomoen-Elverum 30 kms. Average speed 85, 100 for the first half, 70 for the rest. Time 21.15.
Elverum-Rena 32 kms. Average 80, due to a few 60 and 70 limits. Time 24.05.
Rena-Koppang 46 kms. Average 85. A few limited sections, and not Østerdalen at its very best. Time 32.27.
Koppang-Alvdal 87 kms. Average 95. With the current 80 limit, I'm not going much faster than that. Time 54.57.
Alvdal-Tynset 23 kms. Average 85, due to more curves and bans on overtaking. Time 14.57.
Tynset-Kvikne 49 kms 85 average, due to a- and descent. Time 34.37.
Kvikne-Ulsberg 25 kms, average 75. Due to the Trøndelag part, even that may be stretching it. Time 20.00.
Total travel time 3 hours 22 mins 25 seconds. Approximately.

Comments? Feel free, but make them precise. Why is the average wrong on a given section, why, and what would be a better estimate? Otherwise, we're more than through. Btw, my actual travel speed would normally be slightly higher on a few sections in Gudbrandsdalen. Which is from where at least some of the final 10 min would come.
I am impressed of your energy, you even have been able to lower the travel time difference by another 2 minutes, still not reaching 30 minutes, however.....

Personally, I do not have time to go into detail of each leg, which you actually have to do in order to calculate precise by the minute estimates of the in total probably 50 - 100 speed zones on the two routes (wild guess). Have you? Also, Remember, a short 50-zone will lower the average speed a lot.

If I should dear to comment on a specific section, it would be the relatively easy to calculate Alvdal-Kvikne vs Dombås-Kongsvoll. They both have the same speed limit and have relatively few curves, Dombås-Kongsvoll have a larger ascent and descent, nevertheless you claim that Dombås-Kongsvoll is faster.

My general comment would be that still if we accepted your assertion regarding passing possibilities (which I really don't), you do not anywhere, as far as I can see, take into account the higher traffic on the E6 and which in practice is quite important for both the average travel speed, need for passing, and for actual passing opportunities (and hence for comfortable travel, although this is not an issue here.)

In conclusion, I still stick to experienced travel time rather than a theoretical model that does not seem to be detailed or accurate enough. And my experience, and it seems, in the experience of the truck drivers (for somewhat different reasons), the difference is 1 hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
This is averages. Of course, over easter, the winter break and in parts of the summer months, the E6 is too busy to manage such speeds. But that wasn't the issue.
Well, these periods are quite important for the total AADT, especially for Gudbrandsdalen, so I see no point in disregarding them here. Besides, the only times you can disregard the traffic in the E6 vs rv 3 would be late at night.

If I indeed accepted your 41 minute calculation, please tell me, how would that change anything in our basic discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
There are approved plans on a municipal level for the remainder of the stretch - excluding Biri-Lillehammer. True, funds aren't there yet, but it's only a matter of time (the politicians just have to agree on how high the tolls should be...). I'll get back to rv 3 and plans a little later, but afaik, the only thing that is locally approved, is the very busy Løten-Elverum section.
Show me the money....

There are many plans on municipal level that are waiting to be approved and realized, not to mention national plans (remember those of the 60s/50s). Unless policies are changed (which I hope), it will take a long time before we will see your modest time reduction on E6, there are just so many competing projects that things unfortunately still will move in snail pace and not fast enough to keep up with the traffic growth. If policies indeed are changed, which may happen already in a year, I believe that bureaucrats as well as decision makers will see the benefits of investing a fraction of the money in Østerdalen as well. After all, there is neither a chance or political wish that the truck traffic and most of the other Østerdal traffic moves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77;
Besides, even looking decades into the future, there will NEVER EVER be a Oslo-Trondheim motorway, neither in Østerdalen nor in Gudbrandsdalen.
Well, it would not exactly be a moon landing. When a four-lane road is completed to Lillehammer and/or Elverum and Trøndelag also get much needed improvements on the E6 from the northern side, there will not be that many km left. Norway has 91 000 km of public roads already, mostly built in far poorer times, and mostly with a lot less traffic than we are discussing here. The 2000 km of motorways which is needed in order to connect the population centers of southern Norway should not be that hard, and will pay off in the long term. The cost would be less than one year of oil revenues.

I am not a supporter of FrP, the right-wing progress party, but just now it seems that we will get a new government including FrP next fall. They will need to make a lot of compromizes with their potential and more responsible partners in order to form a basis of government. Especially after this summer's debate where infrastructure has been an issue, I am starting to believe that a general motorway plan is a bone which the other parties can throw to FrP, after all not many really disagrees on the fact that Norwegian infrastructure needs an upgrade. If the ball starts to roll on this, it will be hard to stop, I believe....

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; July 31st, 2008 at 01:59 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 05:58 PM   #340
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Sorry that the colors are hard to tell from eachother on the map guys.... Dark red or what i called purple, 2 lane roads who are extra good condition.

I support a change of E6 trough Østerdalen (Atleast put a sign by the exit saying how many kms to Trondheim by both alternatives, it's the fastest during winter and summer I think i saved almost 2 hours on the Rv3 when i tryed both.(Driving like a pig tough)

And when i travel Oslo - Bergen i use Rv 7 and 52 over Hemsedal, who should be changed to E16 with a shortened road west of Hønefoss.
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