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Old March 6th, 2016, 11:13 AM   #3601
MichiH
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E6 Melhus - Tiller

Finally the contract for building 8,1 km motorway (E6 Sentervegen - Jaktøyen) is announced. The winner will be chosen after 30. october, and construction starts in winter. The stretch is still scheduled for completion in 2018. Sadly, it's seems like they have removed the third lane in northbound direction between Klett and Sandmoen to save some money. That means that trucks won't get a climbing lane here. But I guess this lane could be added later.



http://www.vegvesen.no/Om+Statens+ve...Vis?key=985512
When are construction works expected to begin?
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Old March 6th, 2016, 03:28 PM   #3602
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Is it true that Norway is going to phase out the widely successful tax-exemption programs for electric cars?

Electric cars are great and there should be a 15/20-year period of tax exemptions to remove as many traditional fuel cars from the fleet, as it is normally replaced, as possible!
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Old March 6th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #3603
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When are construction works expected to begin?
Preparatory works have started. Main works starts around easter this year, and the stretch is scheduled to open in spring 2019. The project is now called E6 Trondheim-Melhus, and has two webpages;

https://miljopakken.no/prosjekter/e6-trondheim-melhus
http://www.vegvesen.no/Europaveg/e6trondheim
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Old March 8th, 2016, 11:20 PM   #3604
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Is it true that Norway is going to phase out the widely successful tax-exemption programs for electric cars?
It is possible we will see some reduced benefits for ev's next year. Green taxes or subsidies are not popular, it doesn't help that there are 10.000 Teslas on the roads(many of them have extra equipment worth the cost of a Leaf) - so people find this unfair.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #3605
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It is possible we will see some reduced benefits for ev's next year. Green taxes or subsidies are not popular, it doesn't help that there are 10.000 Teslas on the roads(many of them have extra equipment worth the cost of a Leaf) - so people find this unfair.
Typically, subsidies end at the day the subsidized entity turns too popular, and dangers the tax cash flow.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 11:55 AM   #3606
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A while back there was a story in the Wall Street Journal about electric car tax incentives in Norway. An example mentioned was the Finnøy Tunnel near Stavanger. Electric cars are exempt from tolls, but the share of EVs in that tunnel has risen so much that it endangers the financial viability of the toll tunnel.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 01:29 PM   #3607
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Is it true that Norway is going to phase out the widely successful tax-exemption programs for electric cars?

Electric cars are great and there should be a 15/20-year period of tax exemptions to remove as many traditional fuel cars from the fleet, as it is normally replaced, as possible!
I hope so, owners of electric cars use the sme roads, bridges and tunnels as the rest of us use, they should not be exempt from paying for them.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 01:32 PM   #3608
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A while back there was a story in the Wall Street Journal about electric car tax incentives in Norway. An example mentioned was the Finnøy Tunnel near Stavanger. Electric cars are exempt from tolls, but the share of EVs in that tunnel has risen so much that it endangers the financial viability of the toll tunnel.
It's already happened on the Averøy to Kristiansund Atlantic Harbour Tunnel, most people living on Averøy who commute drive electric cars. My brother in law lives there, in his neighbourhood just about everyone has an electric car. The stuipd issue with this tunnel is the car and driver are free but you pay for the passangers.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 04:24 PM   #3609
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I'm not saying electric cars should't pay tolls or parking fees, but they should be exempt of additional taxes/levies cars normally pay (like pollution-based taxes or special duty fees).
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Old March 10th, 2016, 09:06 AM   #3610
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I'm not saying electric cars should't pay tolls or parking fees, but they should be exempt of additional taxes/levies cars normally pay (like pollution-based taxes or special duty fees).
Why?

It is good to understand that environmental taxes are pure bluff. The sole purpose of taxes is to collect money. Most of the taxes are collected where it is easiest. Putting label such as "pollution tax" is psychology: People tend to not resist taxes which they to believe to save the world.

Environmental taxes are like a squirrel: The cute animal is basically a rat surviving due to a successful marketing campaign.
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Old March 10th, 2016, 11:22 PM   #3611
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I'm not saying electric cars should't pay tolls or parking fees, but they should be exempt of additional taxes/levies cars normally pay (like pollution-based taxes or special duty fees).
To be honest, i think electric car are stupid right now.

They don't pollute the environment, yes, but this is often done, where the electricity is produced. Leaving Norways heavily water-based electricity production behind, it does not save any CO² or anything. Why? because an power plant is truly more effective as your little oven at home. But in electricity production around 2/3 of primary energy are lost in production and transmission.

Why are subsidies sometimes a good idea? Because some techniques need a given share in the market to work. So the product might or might not reach a given break-even-point. This could be seen in the economics of the producing company, or for the whole economy of a given region. The subsidies might help creating a breakthrough, which would otherwise never or much later occur.

If this new techniques do work cannot calculated before, just guessed. So it might happen, that this breakthrough never happens. Nuclear energy did never work without subsidies. It was a dream of scientists in the sixties. But what happened? politics decided to pay for upfront cost, right now they pay much for security and if possible they will pay for the leftovers for decades, centuries or äons, if mankind exists so long. It never worked, except for companies. I often hear conspiracys that in fact nuclear is so good, because yuo have so much energy in so little maasses that its like a miracle. Well the fact is, that you need to dig tons and tons of rock to get those grams of usable stuff, afterwards wou enrich it with another high need of energy. I live in saxony, ore mountains. Much of the Uranium for russian weapons was dup up here. But they destroyed the whole region with that, and did not pay. Nowadys this destruction is done in kasachstan, where people do not complain maybe.

With electric cars, we are dependent on good storage, which does not exist. These cars have a much lower range, are much more expensive and rely on a huge use of scarce metals, which are used up for no benefit and are which makes things worse often in hands of our chinese "friends".


In fact if pure uranium would lie on the street somewhere, maybe nuclear would be a good idea (not mentioning the risks). I fact, if electricity would be floating around like water, electric cars would be a good idea, but thats not the cause. Maybe that might change to the better, future nobody knows. But right now electric cars are not ready for competition. Just engineers playground, not usable for the real world.

“[…] reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.” Richard Feynman (Report on the Challenger disaster)
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Old March 10th, 2016, 11:30 PM   #3612
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To be honest, i think electric car are stupid right now.

They don't pollute the environment, yes, but this is often done, where the electricity is produced. Leaving Norways heavily water-based electricity production behind, it does not save any CO² or anything. Why? because an power plant is truly more effective as your little oven at home. But in electricity production around 2/3 of primary energy are lost in production and transmission.
I'm afraid to say you are completely wrong about that!

Bulk transmission at high tension are minimal, less than 1% for a grid like Norway's.

Bulk generation at power plants is far more effective than internal combustion engines. The best ICEs can't recover 38% of total energy. Water turbines can recoup up to 90% of kinetic energy.
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Old March 11th, 2016, 12:10 AM   #3613
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I'm afraid to say you are completely wrong about that!

Bulk transmission at high tension are minimal, less than 1% for a grid like Norway's.

Bulk generation at power plants is far more effective than internal combustion engines. The best ICEs can't recover 38% of total energy. Water turbines can recoup up to 90% of kinetic energy.
Its always funny if someone argues in a field he doe not understand. But please explain your nex insights, as an engineer i am very interested.
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Old March 11th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #3614
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Electric cars use on average 0.2kwh per km. Meanwhile an average fossil fuel car uses 0.6.
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Old March 13th, 2016, 04:49 AM   #3615
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It is shortsighted to say that because electricity may be produces from fossil fuels, electric transportation is not a good idea.

1. A combined cycle gas turbine power plant burning fossil fuels does so with greater than 60% efficiency. The average ICE has an average efficiency of around 20%. An electric motor is more than 90% efficient. Transmission losses are close to negligible. Thus, even if the electricity comes from burning fossil fuels, the end to end efficiency is much greater resulting in less consumption and emissions.

2. Much of the electricity does not come from fossil fuels and is emission neutral. Renewable energy is rapidly replacing other forms of electricity generation and will soon be dominant. Electric cars are in this way future proof.

Renewable energy and battery technology has reached a tipping point, and there is no stopping it now. The price of solar panels, batteries and related technologies will plummet, and no alternative will come close to being able to compete, least of all fossil fuels that are becoming a scarce resource. In 10-20 years, if you live in a house in a reasonably sunny area, there is a good chance your house and car will be powered entirely by free energy beaming down from above. When the price of solar panels and batteries are a tenth of what they are now and their efficiencies are greatly improved, you'd be an idiot not to do this. No more electricity bills and no more filling up the tank at the petrol station.

Renewable energy and electric transportation are not going to win because they are better for the planet, they will win because they are just better.
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Old March 15th, 2016, 10:40 AM   #3616
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Electric engines are very efficient, but also conversion losses in the batteries have to be taken into account, which, as far as I know, leaves the net efficiency (electric grid to mechanical work) to the order of 60 %. The net efficiency when using electric power from a thermal power plant is hence about the same as a conventional petrol or diesel car. For a hydrogen car the total net efficiency is significantly lower, mainly due the low efficiency of the fuel cells.

There are however still very good reasons to switch to electric. In the years ahead the conversion to a climate neutral energy system will have to accelerate, and there is no way fossil cars can be part of that system, whereas all electric power plants in the future will have to be emission free. Thermal power plants probably still will be a major part of this system (resources are plentiful despite what is claimed above, and huge investments have been made) , but only in combination with CCS. Free energy we will never have.

Another big reason to switch to electric is of course the positive effect on the air quality of our cities.
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Old March 15th, 2016, 11:42 AM   #3617
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Electric engines are very efficient, but also conversion losses in the batteries have to be taken into account, which, as far as I know, leaves the net efficiency (electric grid to mechanical work) to the order of 60 %. The net efficiency when using electric power from a thermal power plant is hence about the same as a conventional petrol or diesel car. For a hydrogen car the total net efficiency is significantly lower, mainly due the low efficiency of the fuel cells.

There are however still very good reasons to switch to electric. In the years ahead the conversion to a climate neutral energy system will have to accelerate, and there is no way fossil cars can be part of that system, whereas all electric power plants in the future will have to be emission free. Thermal power plants probably still will be a major part of this system (resources are plentiful despite what is claimed above, and huge investments have been made) , but only in combination with CCS. Free energy we will never have.

Another big reason to switch to electric is of course the positive effect on the air quality of our cities.
One aspect to take into calculations is air-conditioning. It effectively decreases the true power efficiency, because a major part of the battery capacity is used to other purposes than moving the car.

Heating is the other side of the coin. In the cold areas, the heat typically comes for free because of the low efficiency of a gasoline-driven combustion engine: the waste heat is used for heating the cabin. According to tests on electric passenger cars, about half of the energy goes to heating, thus effectively shortening the range of the vehicle to a half. A reasonable solution might be a hybrid car equipped with a fuel-burning heater: It is a more effective way to make heat than using an combustion engine.

Helsinki Regional Transport has ordered 12 fast-charging full-size electric buses. They are equipped with a heat pump. There is a charging station at the endpoints of the line, and the charging time is 1.5-3 minutes only:

http://www.vttresearch.com/media/new...r-into-service

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Old March 15th, 2016, 09:08 PM   #3618
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I agree with regards to heating (and other issues at cold temperatures). Air con of course affects the range and efficiency of an electric car as much (or as little) as for a fossil car.

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; March 15th, 2016 at 09:17 PM.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 12:54 AM   #3619
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Electric engines are very efficient, but also conversion losses in the batteries have to be taken into account, which, as far as I know, leaves the net efficiency (electric grid to mechanical work) to the order of 60 %. The net efficiency when using electric power from a thermal power plant is hence about the same as a conventional petrol or diesel car.
How do you come to that, seeing as one is ~30% and one is ~60%?
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Old March 18th, 2016, 12:04 PM   #3620
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I agree with regards to heating (and other issues at cold temperatures). Air con of course affects the range and efficiency of an electric car as much (or as little) as for a fossil car.
Regarding the heat issue, this is something that has also been brought up with incandescent lightbulbs vs energy saving.

Basically, the theory is that in Northern Europe where it's colder, when we use incandescent bulbs the heat they give off indirectly heats our homes and workplaces and thus is more energy efficient then using an energy bulb and putting more strain on the heating systems for the building.
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