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Old June 6th, 2016, 09:25 PM   #3681
Mathias Olsen
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
An agreement has been reached about the expansion of E18 west of Oslo.
Significant detail with this agreement was that one of the members had a delay because of the traffic jam Despite that, the greens "sell" the agreement as a victory for environment, there will even be a reduction of the benefits of electric cars. And yes, also petrol and diesel cars have to pay more and more, until they are forbidden in Norway by law in 2025!
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Old June 6th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #3682
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No, the greens managed to change the plans, so that there will be 2 lanes inbound and 3 lanes outbound. So overall the capacity will only increase on the local road and the bus lanes.
Although I`ve not seen any drawings or models illustrating the new solution, I´m worried that only two inbound through lanes is gonna make the situation worse than it is today, as the new tunnel from Gjønnes, with expected 20 000 daily vehicles is supposed to merge into E18 at Strand. I sincerely hope the planners in this project is able to "hide" an extra inbound throug lane in a future tunnel under Høvik in the reguleringsplan, so we don`t risk a bottleneck there. Three lanes in each direction at least between the E16-intersection in Sandvika and the Ring 3-intersection near Lysaker is very much needed! Now I´m afraid that the new road from Gjønnes will block this if merged as a third lane until the Ring 3 intersection. From what I´ve understood of the plans earlier, there has been a strong focus on balancing the number of lanes to avoid bottlenecks, but it seems politics might get the last word again, and thus ruining the engineers concept.

Media fronts this as a big loss for the green party in Oslo, my opinion is that they`ve won. I think the Akershus-politicians really has made a huge mistake accepting the reductions in capacity! Now they`re gonna use billions on what might become an even worse situation when E18 also will carry traffic from upper Bærum.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 10:12 PM   #3683
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Caribou Herd on the main road Rv7 through Hardangervidda National Park. Such things happens from time to time in this area. Scientific research of animals in this protected area showed that the animals try to keep distance from the Rv7 road, because their food is less attractive. See http://www.nina.no/archive/nina/PppB...t/2006/131.pdf A complex set of environmental measurements is needed to protect flora and fauna to higher road density.

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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:04 PM   #3684
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Although I`ve not seen any drawings or models illustrating the new solution, I´m worried that only two inbound through lanes is gonna make the situation worse than it is today, as the new tunnel from Gjønnes, with expected 20 000 daily vehicles is supposed to merge into E18 at Strand. I sincerely hope the planners in this project is able to "hide" an extra inbound throug lane in a future tunnel under Høvik in the reguleringsplan, so we don`t risk a bottleneck there. Three lanes in each direction at least between the E16-intersection in Sandvika and the Ring 3-intersection near Lysaker is very much needed! Now I´m afraid that the new road from Gjønnes will block this if merged as a third lane until the Ring 3 intersection. From what I´ve understood of the plans earlier, there has been a strong focus on balancing the number of lanes to avoid bottlenecks, but it seems politics might get the last word again, and thus ruining the engineers concept.

Media fronts this as a big loss for the green party in Oslo, my opinion is that they`ve won. I think the Akershus-politicians really has made a huge mistake accepting the reductions in capacity! Now they`re gonna use billions on what might become an even worse situation when E18 also will carry traffic from upper Bærum.
There will be an auxiliary lane from Bærumsdiagonalen to Ring 3, but only 2 through lanes. It appears that eastbound E18 basically drops from 3 to 2 lanes at Strand, creating an artificial bottleneck. They should've extended the 3 lanes those last 2 kilometers up to the Ring 3 interchange.

About two-thirds of traffic on E18 continues into Oslo, a third uses Ring 3. That's a big divergention point of traffic, so it makes no sense to spend billions on a project that will create a deliberate bottleneck. I'm guessing the Greens see chronic traffic congestion as a tool to limit traffic growth. In particular because the most affected location is outside of Oslo (Bærum), and the most affected motorists are drivers from outside of Oslo.

It also seems that they want to downgrade Mosseveien (also E18) southeast of the city, in exchange for the Manglerud Tunnel. While I think the Manglerud Tunnel makes sense, I doubt if this will materially relieve Mosseveien because those are two different traffic flows.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #3685
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Media fronts this as a big loss for the green party in Oslo, my opinion is that they`ve won. I think the Akershus-politicians really has made a huge mistake accepting the reductions in capacity!
They may have made such a mistake indeed. But Green should also not overestimate itself. They are playing a tricky game. By pushing harder and harder the anti-car scenario, it may bow up all green scenarios in future. The cry for an adequate road traffic solution will be louder and louder, with as result Ring 4 or a similar alternative, bypassing Olso. New suburbs will grow with car-friendly politicians. With Ring 4 the E18 Sandvika - Lysaker section will be bypassed.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:53 PM   #3686
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There will be an auxiliary lane from Bærumsdiagonalen to Ring 3, but only 2 through lanes. It appears that eastbound E18 basically drops from 3 to 2 lanes at Strand, creating an artificial bottleneck. They should've extended the 3 lanes those last 2 kilometers up to the Ring 3 interchange.
That`s correct, and I hope that enough space is saved in the planning for a third through lane. The auxiliary lane should instead be connected to the Fornebu-ramp, right through lane towards Ring 3, and two left lanes furher on E18 through Lysaker. Unsure though, what solution is planned for accessing Fornebu on E18 at the current intersection, as a new link from Strand to Fornebu arena is planned, and partially built. Anyway the E18 should indisputably have three through lanes until the Ring 3-intersection.

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About two-thirds of traffic on E18 continues into Oslo, a third uses Ring 3. That's a big divergention point of traffic, so it makes no sense to spend billions on a project that will create a deliberate bottleneck. I'm guessing the Greens see chronic traffic congestion as a tool to limit traffic growth. In particular because the most affected location is outside of Oslo (Bærum), and the most affected motorists are drivers from outside of Oslo.

It also seems that they want to downgrade Mosseveien (also E18) southeast of the city, in exchange for the Manglerud Tunnel. While I think the Manglerud Tunnel makes sense, I doubt if this will materially relieve Mosseveien because those are two different traffic flows.
It`s gonna be interesting to see how things will get when more detailed plans for Manglerudtunnelen comes. Since private car capacity is not to be raised, the ramps at Helsfyr is dimensioning for E6, giving the new tunnel one lane in each direction for aprox 85% of the traffic (AADT 33 000) I would really liked for an eastern bypass under Østmarka or throug Enebakk, but I don`t see that ever being built.

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They may have made such a mistake indeed. But Green should also not overestimate itself. They are playing a tricky game. By pushing harder and harder the anti-car scenario, it may bow up all green scenarios in future. The cry for an adequate road traffic solution will be louder and louder, with as result Ring 4 or a similar alternative, bypassing Olso. New suburbs will grow with car-friendly politicians. With Ring 4 the E18 Sandvika - Lysaker section will be bypassed.
The proposision for Ring 4 is very good in my opinion. Local politicians could do what ever they want with all other roads in Oslo if a good ring-road system existed, I would`nt care. Sadly though, it`s never gonna happen! Closest thing we`ll ever get to a Ring 4 will be over Hønefoss-Jevnaker-Roa-Gardermoen, and will only have a very limited function as a ring road as it`s way to far out, and of the "direct" routes. But it`s really a pity that traffic that don`t really have anything with Oslo to do has to go right through it.

I`m hoping the new toll-prices reduces some traffic, although I don`t really like the though of prices that are to high for a commom citizen on a daily basis. Luckily for me I live on the country-side and works in a small town. No tolls, no jams.... For now
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Old June 7th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #3687
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It was SVV who proposed only to build Strand - Lysaker in first phase. And as a consequence only two lanes needs to be built/opened for traffic now. But the day the Høvik tunnel opens (6 lanes), they will most likely open the third lane. This in order to maintain lane balance, and maybe to avoid backblocking in the tunnel. The same goes for the planned widening south of the new Manglerud tunnel.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 10:12 AM   #3688
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Caribou Herd on the main road Rv7 through Hardangervidda National Park.
A little bit a laugh... trying to upgrade an east-west main road through a National Park... Poland tried some years ago in the North-East with main road S8 Białystok-Augustów. It was against the environment policy of the European Union and Poland had to skip this road. Hardangervidda National Park may be also as unique and it should be wiser to redirect traffic over E16 and E134.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 10:18 AM   #3689
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I'll be surprised if a return trip from say Gothenburg to Bergen will be more than €50 if you drive the E6/E16/RV7/RV52/E16.

Surely, this is fairly reasonable and comparable to a similar trip to Continental Europe from Gothenburg (via the Oresund and Great Belt fixed links).
Crossing great body's of water or nation borders is one thing, driving on insufficient roads out of downtown and pay 8 USD is a huge spit in the face.
Modern Feudalism have no place in Scandinavia.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #3690
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Crossing great body's of water or nation borders is one thing, driving on insufficient roads out of downtown and pay 8 USD is a huge spit in the face.
Modern Feudalism have no place in Scandinavia.
Indeed, Norway has to learn some lessons from their neighbours Sweden and Denmark. For a foreigner like me, it feels unreasonable to pay for a road who lacks European standards. Yes, I have been in situations with narrow, snowy roads and landslides.

But I see also some hope! No matter what government or road authority, we see every year the motorway part on E6 Oslo-Trondheim (524 km) growing. Not all 2x2 motorway, some part 2+1, but at least grade separated, so a road with a motorway feeling and suitable for long distances. Finally Norway will come to motorway civilization.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 11:54 AM   #3691
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The proposision for Ring 4 is very good in my opinion. Local politicians could do what ever they want with all other roads in Oslo if a good ring-road system existed, I would`nt care. Sadly though, it`s never gonna happen! Closest thing we`ll ever get to a Ring 4 will be over Hønefoss-Jevnaker-Roa-Gardermoen, and will only have a very limited function as a ring road as it`s way to far out, and of the "direct" routes. But it`s really a pity that traffic that don`t really have anything with Oslo to do has to go right through it.
Some patience is needed now, but you may do the following things:

1. Post traffic jam maps here with a lot of jam in Oslo. People will see the need in Oslo for a ring road or other improvements.
2. Post arguments for new motorways here or on other forums.
3. Post new plans or initiatives for new motorways here or on other forums.

Don't forget to talk to your family, friends and neighbours about the traffic problems. Think big, start small and make impression. That will work!
Situation in Oslo is that by continuous investments in an already oversized metro network, Green Oslo is going too far. Today Oslo is the world's most extensive metro per resident. One failure in this metro network, such as in Brussels, may change this scenario. More important: Oslo is a hub of business companies and you need a car to do business, not only for managers. Like we have seen in so many European cities, one day there will be a change. Oslo should look at Stavanger, a city with active investments in motorways E39 Haugesund/Bergen, E39 Kristiansand, E134 Odda-Oslo. In case of too much traffic problems many companies will leave Oslo.
Statens vegvesen is aware of the Oslo traffic nightmare and also a southern Oslo bypass may help a lot.

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Old June 7th, 2016, 04:57 PM   #3692
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Some patience is needed now, but you may do the following things:

1. Post traffic jam maps here with a lot of jam in Oslo. People will see the need in Oslo for a ring road or other improvements.
2. Post arguments for new motorways here or on other forums.
3. Post new plans or initiatives for new motorways here or on other forums.

Don't forget to talk to your family, friends and neighbours about the traffic problems. Think big, start small and make impression. That will work!
Situation in Oslo is that by continuous investments in an already oversized metro network, Green Oslo is going too far. Today Oslo is the world's most extensive metro per resident. One failure in this metro network, such as in Brussels, may change this scenario. More important: Oslo is a hub of business companies and you need a car to do business, not only for managers. Like we have seen in so many European cities, one day there will be a change. Oslo should look at Stavanger, a city with active investments in motorways E39 Haugesund/Bergen, E39 Kristiansand, E134 Odda-Oslo. In case of too much traffic problems many companies will leave Oslo.
Statens vegvesen is aware of the Oslo traffic nightmare and also a southern Oslo bypass may help a lot.
I'm not sure if you're just trying to be provocative, but you make some pretty bold statements about Oslo and how stuff works. Where did you read that Oslo metro is so extensive? Is it based on population in Oslo urban area, or metropolitan area? What is your opinion on the modal split between metro, bus and tram?

Truth is, yes, Stavanger is the car capital of Norway. 59 % commute by car, compared to Oslo's 37 % (see here: http://epomm.eu/tems/result_city.phtml?city=323&map=1 and here: http://epomm.eu/tems/result_city.phtml?city=291&map=1 ; Copenhagen has 33 %). The success of Stavanger is moving all new offices to an area known as Forus, where you can expect the joy of standing lines just as bad as the capital. Actually, according to TomTom who measures the effects of traffic congestion in cities in the world, recently put extra time spent on travel during rush hour in Stavanger to 25 % (23 % now after recession) more than travel outside rush. This is identical to Oslo's 25 %, but far more than other cities in Norway of similar size (Bergen 20%, Trondheim 16%). It's also the highest of any of the medium sized cities in the Nordics (src: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/list). So no, I don't think Oslo should be more like Stavanger.

If you think Oslo are going to suffer due to traffic congestion on E18, I think you've made some miscalculations. Downtown should probably already be in a struggle then, but no: Prices for office space are just going up in the least accessible areas for cars: http://www.nenyheter.no/44446 Obviously, these people have longer timescales than just a couple of years. 100.000s of sqms of office space close to the central station are already undergoing planning or being built.
Statistics for retail shows similar trends, 6.3 % growth in sales last year: http://www.nenyheter.no/44450

I believe in a Ring 4, as in a Oslo bypass, but to me it seems more or less decided that it will follow Rv23 or Rv19 south of Oslo and Rv35 west of Oslo and E16 north of Oslo. It should relieve downtown of a lot of heavy traffic bound for other parts of the country.

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. you need a car to do business.
Why? Where have you been the last decade?
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Old June 7th, 2016, 06:05 PM   #3693
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Local politicians could do what ever they want with all other roads in Oslo if a good ring-road system existed, I would`nt care.
Oslo is the Green dream city#1 in the world. In Europe, Gliwice is #1 motorway city. They even made in 2016 (!) an expressway through the oldtown *innercity*. Check it out and see how old 19th century buildings had to be destroyed for an expressway.
Olso and Gliwice are two points of the balance between Green policy and freedom or a car. In between are in following order for Norway: Stockholm, Copenhagen and Antwerpen. A local politician will loose his followers when he doesn't listen to the people. Sooner or later the extreme green dreams are over..... the same as with the complete car freedom dreams. The smart balance is in the middle.....
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Old June 7th, 2016, 07:45 PM   #3694
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Oslo is the Green dream city#1 in the world. In Europe, Gliwice is #1 motorway city. They even made in 2016 (!) an expressway through the oldtown *innercity*. Check it out and see how old 19th century buildings had to be destroyed for an expressway.

Olso and Gliwice are two points of the balance between Green policy and freedom or a car. In between are in following order for Norway: Stockholm, Copenhagen and Antwerpen. A local politician will loose his followers when he doesn't listen to the people. Sooner or later the extreme green dreams are over..... the same as with the complete car freedom dreams. The smart balance is in the middle.....
This is one of the smartest points I've ever read in this forum. All other posts are square-minded arguments between one extreme and the other. I don't have anything to add to this particular matter but I felt the need to point this out.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 08:10 PM   #3695
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The expressway goes nowhere near Gliwice oldtown
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Old June 7th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #3696
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The expressway goes nowhere near Gliwice oldtown
Offtopic question here. This is about motorways in Norway, not in Poland. However, check out the following evidence (use translate Google when necessary): http://www.dziennikzachodni.pl/motof...bciej,9764381/ Second opinion Google Maps (use photo view) https://www.google.nl/maps/place/Gli...3!4d18.6713802 In fact you don't need to check the links at all. Any reader can have a look at the buildings and draw the conclusion that it is German architecture made by Germans long before WWII.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 11:02 PM   #3697
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Where did you read that Oslo metro is so extensive?
See Wikipedia "Oslo" under "Transport". We may check it with the following formula:
Metro density = (Length metro network) / (Number city inhabitants)
Oslo has 658 390 inhabitants and a metro network of 85 km
Oslo Metro density = 0,129
Amsterdam has 838 387 inhabitants a metro network of 42,5 km
Amsterdam Metro density = 0,0507
Now it's your turn to falsify the claim that Oslo has the highest Metro density in the world.

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Is it based on population in Oslo urban area, or metropolitan area?
None of them. Based on city administration.

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Originally Posted by IceCheese View Post
What is your opinion on the modal split between metro, bus and tram?
I am not a specialist in public city transport, but AFAIK it depends on the growth and resources of a city.

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Stavanger is the car capital of Norway.
We agree on this statement. I want to add that is for me the City Adminstration Road Transport Governance policy that I admire.
Last years they had much more success to get better motorways to Stavanger than Bergen: E39 North, E39 South, E134.

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If you think Oslo are going to suffer due to traffic congestion on E18, I think you've made some miscalculations.
Office price is just one KPI of business vitality in a city. Some others are e.g. investment growth, employee engagement.

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I believe in a Ring 4, as in a Oslo bypass, but to me it seems more or less decided that it will follow Rv23
Again I agree with you on this point. I hope Ring 4 will be build and Rv23 will be improved to double capacity.

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You need a car to do business. Why?
For short distances public transport may be a help, but not for long distances because of speed, privacy, criminality, health.

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Where have you been the last decade?
In almost all countries in Northern, Central and Western Europe.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 12:43 PM   #3698
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Oslo should look at Stavanger, a city with active investments in motorways E39 Haugesund/Bergen, E39 Kristiansand, E134 Odda-Oslo. In case of too much traffic problems many companies will leave Oslo.
The investments in those motorways are about creating better connections to neighbouring regions and other large cities in Norway, not (mainly) for commuters. Oslo has already got a great motorway network to its regional neighbours. Have you ever travelled by car between Kristiansand-Stavanger-Bergen? It's a very different experience than driving between Kristiansand-Oslo-Lillehammer.

I don't see what's the problem with an "oversized" metro network in Oslo. Isn't that a good thing? I, for one, envy Oslo its great public transport, while Stavanger and other large/medium size Norwegian cities are standing with their hat in hand begging for some public transport financing crumbs.

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For short distances public transport may be a help, but not for long distances because of speed, privacy, criminality, health.
WHAT?!
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Old June 8th, 2016, 01:18 PM   #3699
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Originally Posted by Mathias Olsen View Post
See Wikipedia "Oslo" under "Transport". We may check it with the following formula:
Metro density = (Length metro network) / (Number city inhabitants)
Oslo has 658 390 inhabitants and a metro network of 85 km
Oslo Metro density = 0,129
Amsterdam has 838 387 inhabitants a metro network of 42,5 km
Amsterdam Metro density = 0,0507
Now it's your turn to falsify the claim that Oslo has the highest Metro density in the world.


None of them. Based on city administration.
Firstly, you can't base the Oslo metro only on the inhabitants of Oslo city, which is just an archaic construction for administration. 350.000 of daily ridership didn't spur from the local population alone. Mind you also, that about 1/8th of the metro network lies in Bærum municipality, meaning the metro of Oslo proper is 74.3 km (your calculation; density 0.113, including Bærum it would be 0.108)).

Secondly, you can't just make an unbased statement, find one example to verify it, and then say it's everyone else's "job" to prove you wrong. That's not how a debate works.

For the "proof", there are both cities with greater coverage than Oslo compared to it's population (Rotterdam 0.126, Bilbao 0.125, San Sebastián 0.114) , and there are cities planning a greater network (like Stockholm). There are also cities with similar or smaller networks with A LOT lower ridership (Tyne & Wear, 74.5 km network, 40 mio ridership). Oslo metro is a success, whether you like it or not.
(note that all of these numbers are based on city populations, and the comparison therefor is nonsensical)

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I am not a specialist in public city transport, but AFAIK it depends on the growth and resources of a city.
Most of both the current metro network and the tram network was built by private corporations before the war.

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For short distances public transport may be a help, but not for long distances because of speed, privacy, criminality, health.
I'm not criticising the construction of motorways on longer stretches between cities. E18 through Oslo is already at motorway standard with a few exceptions.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 02:12 PM   #3700
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We have 3 options to select:

1. Oslo-Borgund-Bergen 515 km (Rv52)
2. Oslo-Geilo-Bergen 476 km (Rv7)
3. Oslo-Odda-Bergen 380 km (E134)

Economical impact analysis shows that option 3 has the highest economical benefit for the country and also goes to more areas with a dense population.
The Minister of Transport has made a choice. The choice was E134 Oslo-Odda-Bergen. Any Minister of Transport with a perspective to serve the country should have chosen this option. Also the National Road Administration selected E134 Oslo-Odda-Bergen.

So far, so good.....



But, what happened after that? Political pressure came. Conservative politicians blocked the selected choice. They want Rv7, but this option has no key arguments. Rv7 is through a unique national park in Europe, is at high altitude and therefore more snowy in winter and longer. The only argument for Rv7 comes from politicians, journalists and Bergen Chamber of Commerce, who have holiday houses in Voss, Haugastøl and Geilo. Check it out:
https://hnytt.no/2016/05/03/massive-...oet-hordaland/

Very sad that the E134 motorway Bergen-Olso as national project is under pressure because the government has allowed themselves to be pressured and persuaded by lobbyists and holiday houses owners.
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Have a safe trip!

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