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Old June 10th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #3721
berlinwroclaw
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I kind of have a feeling that the "city-government" in Oslo may make driving by car so expensive that traffic may drop enough that further road-expanding will be unesesary. They have a goal in 15% (that includes commercial traffic) drop in traffic, and I`m not sure the newly decided toll-prices is gonna make that happen, which will result in even higher prices, and maybe more toll-gates. At some point, the common citizen is not gonna afford paying tolls on a daily basis
Yes. But the same happens in many other European cities. They call their inner city an "environmental zone", such as in London. You have to pay a lot to enter such an "environmental zone" and dirty cars are not allowed at all. IMO there is something to say for cleaner zones in living areas with many people. But in London you have the alternative to go over the M25 ring motorway, while Oslo still lacks a true ring motorway, because there are no plans to construct a full Ring 4 motorway. Because there is no alternative for public transport, people are under forced control to use metro, tram or bus. That is against the universal right of freedom, a cornerstone in democratic countries. Are people in Oslo happy with that? Some research is needed what the people in Oslo want. I am curious to independent polls about it.

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With this I´m afraid it will make Oslo a "looser-city", with the flexibility in driving a car vanishing. In many contexts it`s gonna make Oslo unattractive for businesses compared to Copenhagen, Gothenburg and Stockholm, cities that put money on more than one card (read public transportation). There is a big psychological effect in not being able to use a car in many contexts. This determines a lot in where businesses and shops will locate. If anything like this should happen, I hope someone sees the warning signs! I really hope it`s just me who`s pessimistic
I can agree with your pessimism. But there will come a turning point. Politicians in Oslo have to learn a lot how to deal with big city transport problems and how to create a vital city. Oslo is still booming and will grow with 2 million people next 25 years. But this makes the politicians in Oslo too optimistic about the future. It is good that within 25 year the Norwegian oil stops, so it will be business as usual again, that means Green dreams will be downsized. The heterogeneous group of people in Oslo will make the business vitality weaker compared to other cities, like Stavanger. That is where the rubber will hit the road in Oslo. In the end it will be allright with the Oslo transport network, Oslo will follow other cities like Stockholm or Copenhagen, but it won't go without pain...
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Old June 10th, 2016, 08:53 PM   #3722
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Just take your car and drive to E6 motorway to Lillehammer (I am sure you will like that road)
You can be sure that Chris planned this trip in detail long ago. However if you claim that the road to Lillehammer is motorway he will not be impressed at all, as it's far from being one.

Speaking of which, there has been a lot of discussion here regarding the planned motorway Oslo - Bergen. I maybe missed something, but afaik there exist no such plans except in the rather fictous "motorway plan" in the national transport plan. That "motorway plan" is fictous because it in reality is a study and not a plan. I think it's largest bummer is to place the Trondheim - Oslo route along Gudbrandsdalen instead of Østerdalen, which would be a cheaper and much faster alternative.

See eg http://www.bedrevei.no/abv-veikart/ for a better solution :

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Old June 10th, 2016, 08:58 PM   #3723
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The E6 motorway ends at the Rv. 3 turnoff, which is even south of Hamar. North of there it's mostly 80 km/h, and grade-separated until past Lillehammer, except for one roundabout after the bridge across Mjøsa where E6 meets Rv. 4.

I noticed traffic was quite busy until Hamar, north of there is less intense traffic, but it would be better with 100 km/h and more passing lanes. There are two or three short 2x2 stretches where you can pass vehicles, but it's limited to 80 km/h.
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Old June 10th, 2016, 09:49 PM   #3724
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I maybe missed something, but afaik there exist no such plans except in the rather fictous "motorway plan" in the national transport plan. That "motorway plan" is fictous because it in reality is a study and not a plan.
True. But is that really a problem? In my book, not so much, as there isn't traffic meriting a cross-mountain motorway between Oslo and Bergen (I do, however, believe we will see four+ lanes Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger-Bergen in the not too distant future...). It is far more important that we get our priorities straight once and for all - we need a decent and proper Oslo-Bergen highway, preferably across Haukeli. It's the busiest link, it's the shortest, it is useful for the Haugesund and even Stavanger region. I believe that the Haukeli+Bergen thing will eventually happen, but it'll take time...

At the same time, we need a proper road that links Sogn og Fjordane and northern Hordaland to Oslo and Bergen, and that's the real predicament as there are three possible options (yes, I do include Valdres, because I know how Norwegian politics work...). This might even mess up the Haukeli link as both projects are very expensive and, to some extent, in direct competition... However, this was the one thing I seriously believed the current road-friendly administration would sort out, but at the moment, I'm not very hopeful.

When it comes to Oslo, I don't see any of the fanciful ring road projects coming to fruition. Partly because it's politically impossible, but mostly because most of them are not needed. Oslo isn't Paris, London or even Copenhagen. What we do need is a radically changed public transport system (metro and railroads) plus a reasonable bypass road system with a sensible solution for the current E18, E6, and Ring 3. A moderate capacity increase which also opens up the city to the sea is welcome. It might happen, but I'm not holding my breath...

Northwards? Well, I foresee a reasonable improvement of both E6 and rv 3, but not much motorway north of Lillehammer/Elverum or south of Støren. It's simply too much money for not all that much traffic. I hope, though, that both links will be developed into divided 1+1/2+1 roads - rv 3 doesn't even require that much realignment and can be done on the cheap. Do I believe it will happen? Not really, and that's a shame...
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Old June 10th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #3725
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It is far more important that we get our priorities straight once and for all - we need a decent and proper Oslo-Bergen highway, preferably across Haukeli. It's the busiest link, it's the shortest, it is useful for the Haugesund and even Stavanger region. I believe that the Haukeli+Bergen thing will eventually happen, but it'll take time...
True. There is a need for charismatic political leaders with social network to get the things done. Also platform action groups for E134 like Vegforum Øst-Vest are useful and even this SSC forum can be a help. Many people in the west are not aware about the benefits of long distance car driving.
First priority should be two snow-free Haukeli tunnels. There is some resistance for this adequate solution of the Haukeli pass, it costs 14 billion, the government still has no approval for this plan.
http://www.vest24.no/nyheter/samferd...l/s/5-82-37865



Of the two Haukeli tunnels, the western tunnel (Røldal) is already approved. The battle now concentrates on the eastern tunnel (Haukeli) tunnel. Government and Road Administration want 3 smaller tunnels, costs 7 billion.



Second priority is Bergen-Odda via Jondal bridge. Without this connection, the platform and trigger to invest in the two expensive snow-free Haukeli tunnels will be mitigated, so we may get again a solution with shortcomings.
With Bergen-Odda the foundation to construct a 2x2 E134 motorway is ensured, because it will attract all traffic from Stavanger till north of Bergen: the superior motorway that even will reduce air traffic, in case speed limit will reach European defacto standard 130 km/h.

Highway: maybe not good enough. Norway will need for export and tourist purposes a *motorway*, can be 1x2 for the time being in tunnels and some other expensive sections, but a safe short traveling time is essential for the economy of Norway. There is hope for that, because actual plans show that there is at least reservation for such a 2x2 motorway.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 10:53 AM   #3726
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... that we get our priorities straight once and for all - we need a decent and proper Oslo-Bergen highway...
To get the priorities right, it should reflect also here on this forum. Unfortunately what can be seen here are too much exotic projects far from E134 Bergen-Oslo. Silent approval of the existing local policy situation. At least once a week there should be an update about the E134 Bergen-Oslo. There are some action group websites, publishing 2x or 3x a month an article, there are online newspaper forums from Bergen, Haugesund, Stavanger, etc. Together more than enough to provide a weekly update report. Remember: deadline is next summer. Then will be decided. Will give a good feeling inside to work for the sake of Norway, true or not true?
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Old June 11th, 2016, 12:03 PM   #3727
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... regarding the planned motorway Oslo - Bergen. I maybe missed something, but afaik there exist no such plans except in the rather fictous "motorway plan" in the national transport plan. That "motorway plan" is fictous because it in reality is a study and not a plan.
There is no formal plan for E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo. That is true. But when we have a look at existing projects of road E134, e.g. at Drammen and Kongsberg we will see 2x2 motorway sections with tunnels and interchanges.
Is it really wishful thinking that there may be an informal plan for E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo, in the heads of the road planners? In many countries (e.g. Poland) it is quite normal first to start with bypasses of cities and to complete the motorway later. You know that motorway construction in Norway is sensitive business. Showing plans causes too many local political problems. The motorway from Bergen to Oslo will come or in upcoming national plan or later, it cannot be stopped. The road planners know about it.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 05:54 PM   #3728
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The motorway from Bergen to Oslo will come or in upcoming national plan or later, it cannot be stopped. The road planners know about it.
To put it simple, it won't happen. There will be motorway sections, for sure, but a full-profile motorway through the mountains is not even remotely realistic. It is a) unnecessary, as the AADT is low to moderate b) going to have a massive environmental impact c) extremely expensive and d) impossible, politically speaking. What we can hope for, though, is a plan which deals with the Oslo-Bergen link as a whole, instead of just individual shorter sections. If we also can rid ourselves of bickering between regions and counties, and within most political parties and the bureaucracy, it would be an important step forward. Still not holding my breath, though...
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Old June 11th, 2016, 06:24 PM   #3729
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I've driven both Rv. 7 and E16 between Oslo and Bergen. One thing you'll notice is the very light traffic once you're more than 50 km from Oslo or Bergen. Across Hardangervidda you'll encounter very light traffic and very few trucks, compared to two-lane roads in Central Europe. Filefjell is like that as well.

A full motorway is unnecessary, but the Oslo - Bergen route would benefit from higher speed limits up to 90-100 km/h and frequent passing lanes and a divider in the median.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 07:10 PM   #3730
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I drove Kvivsvegen (E39) to Volda today. It was the only road in this area where I could drive 80 km/h with the cruise control engaged for an extended period of time. Many other roads are curvy, narrow and/or have a lot of 60-70 limits. I can see that Kvivsvegen is a huge improvement.

I also drove through the Eiksund Tunnel, which goes 287 meters below sea level. Man that is steep, I had it in 2nd gear and the car still went over 80 km/h if I didn't brake. There is a section control in the tunnel.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 07:13 PM   #3731
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A full motorway is unnecessary, but the Oslo - Bergen route would benefit from higher speed limits up to 90-100 km/h and frequent passing lanes and a divider in the median.
And going via the shorter route via Odda, surely?
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Old June 11th, 2016, 08:08 PM   #3732
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I've driven both Rv. 7 and E16 between Oslo and Bergen. One thing you'll notice is the very light traffic once you're more than 50 km from Oslo or Bergen. Across Hardangervidda you'll encounter very light traffic and very few trucks, compared to two-lane roads in Central Europe. Filefjell is like that as well.
Nice you are going to Bergen. When you have no sponsor, I think you should have.
Your impression about the traffic is excellent confirmed in the statistics. The number of cars running the entire route Oslo - Bergen daily is only 550. Most are local or regional traffic.

Statistics about Oslo-Bergen traffic (2014):
http://www.bt.no/nyheter/trafikk/Det...t-3238169.html

E16 Filefjell - 12,5%
Rv7 Hardangervidda - 14,6%
Rv52 Hemsedal – 23,6%
E134 Haukeli - 27% and growing

The Minister of Transport and the Road Administration have solid reasons to select Rv52 as secondary main road Oslo – Bergen after primary main road E134.
But what about the Rv7 Hardanger bridge? Rv7 Hardanger bridge comes in financial problems because it has less traffic than predicted.

https://www.nrk.no/hordaland/dropper...ngt-1.11567086

It is likely that Rv7 will not be selected as northern road from west to east. Therefore it will no longer be prioritized holding open during the winter. It may be a serious option to retire the complete bridge to avoid high maintenance costs and a bankrupt bridge administration. Parts can be used for new bridges, such as on E134 Bergen-Odda.
The bridge has been constructed with modular parts, in the same way the bridge has been constructed, modular parts can be removed and transferred to other bridges.



Re-use of old bridge parts is not unusual in many countries. This can be an effective example of sustainability, hype in Norway and many other Western countries.

I am curious which road you will take to the south east. Via E39 or E134?
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Old June 11th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #3733
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there isn't traffic meriting a cross-mountain motorway between Oslo and Bergen (I do, however, believe we will see four+ lanes Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger-Bergen in the not too distant future...).
For the near future, you may be right. The complete E39 motorway Kristiansand-Stavanger with 4 lanes will be ready in 2023 according to Minister of Transport Ketil Solvik-Olsen. https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/minister...e18-1.11875392 Stavanger will be the first city on the westcoast with a snow-free connection to the European motorway network. Section Sandnes-Stavanger (16 km) of E39 motorway Kristiansand-Stavanger (235 km) is already completed. Looks good isn’t it?




National Road Administration has made an agreement in May 2016 with Lindesnes and Lyngdal municipality for another new section of the 2x2 motorway E39 Kristiansand-Stavanger. The new section fits to the already in half motorway profile build grade separated section north and south of Feda.



The selected section will have 3 new motorway interchanges.

That is good news for the construction of the missing link in the E39 motorway Kristiansand -Sandnes. Last section to be approved by local administrations is Lyngdal vest – Sandnes. It is expected to come in Summer 2017.

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Old June 12th, 2016, 11:14 AM   #3734
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There will be motorway sections, for sure, but a full-profile motorway through the mountains is not even remotely realistic.
Only updating the ancient road Bergen-Oslo is not enough. We live in 21-st century in which poor countries like Slovakia and Croatia have created worldclass motorways in mountain areas connecting cities with less population than Bergen or Oslo. When European trucks cause an accident, newspapers say: “It was a driver without experience”.



No, the driver expects a motorway and Norway hasn’t. When oil is over in 2040 the Bergen-Oslo motorway is a must for economic survival. I am aware that for many people in Norway outside the south east, long distance car driving is a complete new phenomenon. But this will change when more motorways on the westcoast will be available. Here an answer to the feasibility of the E134 motorway.

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a) unnecessary, as the AADT is low to moderate
1. “Induced demand”: when increasing the supply of roads, people want to use it even more.
2. Experience in all countries in the world is that a motorway attracts traffic.
3. Norway will have a fast population growth so present AADT is not valid.
4. Note that Minister of Transport considers increasing the speed limit to 130 km/h on some sections, so this motorway will attract many airline passengers.
5. Attraction of drivers who never used Bergen-Oslo: tourists, business men, transport trucks, family visit, etc., etc.
6. The motorway generates a multiplier effect in houses around exits, business parks, hotels, tourist attractions, etc.


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b) going to have a massive environmental impact
1. Long tunnels under mountains will improve the impact of the environment on the motorway. Environment groups will support the tunnels; see experiences in other countries with tunnel projects, e.g. in cities and national parks.
2. Modern sound walls help to mitigate the sound problem.
3. Electric cars, no more pollution. Norway has already 25% of its cars electric. It will be 100% by law in 2025 when E134 Bergen-Oslo can be ready.
4. There are no big cities with high demanding environment groups and no national parks with international law agreements, ecoducts will be sufficient.

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c) extremely expensive
1. Norway is a rich oil country. Money should not be a problem.
2. The government can make a sacrifice by re-arrange the priority list of infrastructure and put E134 motorway on #1 position. Germany did with many East German motorways, by reduction of motorway investments in Western Germany.
3. Mitigation of costs by incorporating and adapting some existing roads and planned improvements.
3. Borrow budget. EU funds may also help Norway.
4. Return of investment is high. Transport, business and tourist are willing to pay for such a road, track record in many countries via toll and PPP. Again track record in many countries.

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d) impossible, politically speaking
1. Referendum is a possibility to get a mandate for such a mega-project. Switzerland did with their 57 km tunnel under the Alps.
2. Motorways will increase road safety. This has been a key argument for the government to upgrade E39 Kristiansand-Stavanger to full 2x2 motorway.
3. The motorway passes weak economical areas and will help to stimulate those areas. Another key argument.

It shows that a complete East West motorway E134 Bergen-Oslo is eminently feasible.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 12:10 PM   #3735
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I agree that Norway should build a motorway network connecting the major cities of the country except Tromsø and Bodø. In that sense, it was good that the government ordered the inclusion of a "motorway plan" (which is a study) in the transportation plan. Some of the route selections are not ideal, but it is a starting point for discussion. The network is very much needed, not for capacity everywhere but for speed of travel and safety. The huge domestic air traffic in Norway is senseless and unsustainable, and much of the leisure travel could be transferred to the roads if the travel times between the greater cities are reduced to 4 hours or so.

However, we should start with the low hanging fruits. Oslo - Lillehammer /Elverum /Kristiansand-Stavanger will come within a decade or so. There is also some momentum for Stavanger - Bergen, although the costs are high. The next big project should be Trondheim - Oslo. The compounded traffic on the stretches with lowest traffic is in fact much higher than for the various mountain sections Oslo - Bergen, and the costs for Trondheim - Oslo would be significantly lower. When the improvements are completed to Ulsberg from the north and to Lillehammer /Elverum from the south only 250 km or so remains, and there is no need for a number of massive tunnels or a huge bridge like Bergen - Oslo.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 12:26 PM   #3736
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I think there should be a freeway at least until Mo'I Rana
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Old June 12th, 2016, 04:16 PM   #3737
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full-profile motorway through the mountains is not even remotely realistic.
It may sound as science fiction when all of your life you are driving over empty ancient mountain roads, when someone is telling you that there should come a motorway...
But we live in 21-st century and when you look around only in Europe, you see that poor countries like Croatia and Slovakia are building mountain motorways is fast tempo. We live in a time that it is expected that there is a motorway between agglomerations of half a million inhabitants such as Stavanger-Haugesund-Bergen and Oslo…



Preview of a new mountain section E134 Bergen-Oslo motorway? No, it is the D1 motorway in Slovakia.

D1 motorway in poor Slovakia (GDP per capita = 18 139) is between the two biggest cities Bratislava (432 801 inhabitants) and Košice (240 688 inhabitants), 517 km of which 86 km under construction and 109 km in planning.

E134 motorway in rich Norway (GDP per capita = 100 575) is between the two biggest cities Oslo (658 390 inhabitants) and Bergen (278 121 inhabitants), 480 km of 3 km in planning (junction with E18-Drammen West) and 477 km non-existing.



Preview of a new mountain section E134 Bergen-Oslo motorway? No, it is the A7 motorway in Croatia.

The A7 has an AADT of only 6653. Motorway E134 Bergen-Oslo is expected to have an AADT above 8000. Does Croatia better understand the importance of motorways for the economy and wellness than Norway? When you look at the present road to Bergen-Oslo, yes!

No excuse for Norway that there are mountains, traffic is too low or that it is too expensive to build a motorway between the biggest cities of the country. Why can poor Slovakia and Croatia do what Norway can’t?
There is a tremendous job to do: focus on national priority infrastructure awareness in Norway.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #3738
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Slovakia and Croatia are not really comparable to the Norwegian topography. The mountain stretches are much longer, with less traffic, resulting in a low cost-benefit ratio. I too think travel times are important to express the need for high-standard roads, judging it by capacity alone will fail the project.

I drove from near Stryn to Åndalsnes today, via Otta and Dombås. It is maybe 320 km and mostly on roads where you can drive 80 km/h, but including a few stops it took me nearly 6 hours to drive. As a tourist, it doesn't matter too much, but for utility travel it is quite an obstacle.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 07:22 PM   #3739
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Slovakia and Croatia are not really comparable to the Norwegian topography. The mountain stretches are much longer, with less traffic, resulting in a low cost-benefit ratio. I too think travel times are important to express the need for high-standard roads, judging it by capacity alone will fail the project.

I drove from near Stryn to Åndalsnes today, via Otta and Dombås. It is maybe 320 km and mostly on roads where you can drive 80 km/h, but including a few stops it took me nearly 6 hours to drive. As a tourist, it doesn't matter too much, but for utility travel it is quite an obstacle.
Population density:
Norway: 14
Croatia: 79
Slovakia: 112

Moreover, Croatia and Sloakia attract transit traffic between different European countries, while Norway obviously doesn't.
That doesn't mean that Norway doesn't deserve good infrastructure, though.

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Preview of a new mountain section E134 Bergen-Oslo motorway? No, it is the A7 motorway in Croatia.
That's the first time I notice a pic taken by me posted somewhere else.
Not that is an issue, of course, it means that someone appreciated it.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 12th, 2016, 10:11 PM   #3740
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1. Referendum is a possibility to get a mandate for such a mega-project. Switzerland did with their 57 km tunnel under the Alps.
2. Motorways will increase road safety. This has been a key argument for the government to upgrade E39 Kristiansand-Stavanger to full 2x2 motorway.
3. The motorway passes weak economical areas and will help to stimulate those areas. Another key argument.

It shows that a complete East West motorway E134 Bergen-Oslo is eminently feasible.
The thing is, none of these things change the realities of Norwegian national and local politics. And, more importantly, it is highly unlikely that such a project would get significant popular support: we do need some motorways, but not everywhere. Also, Norway is a country roughly the same size as Poland, but Poland's population is seven times larger. In addition, the population is certainly not evenly spread out - approx 40% live within two hours from Oslo. The rest live almost exclusively along the coast. Thus, a coastal motorway Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger-Bergen makes sense - both from a national, regional and local perspective - even though a cross-mountain motorway does not.
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