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Old June 16th, 2016, 12:38 PM   #3801
MattiG
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Granted, Rv 17 is one of the most beautiful long distance drives I am aware, but it is fairly slow, and not something you want to drive twice in your holiday. On your return trip there are no better alternative than E6, which, in my opinion, overall is one of the most interesting long distance drives Norway has to offer.
Rv17 and E6 are, of course, are the only N-S options in Norway on that latitude. And Rv17 is slow, I know. If I recall, my trip from Fauske over Rv17 to Trondheim took four days. If needed, the return trip can be done via Sweden. The route of that trip took place via Arjeplog in Sweden, Junkerdalen, Salstraumen, Rv17, Trondheim, Ålesund and back via Stockholm.

If I needed to make a trip from the Central Europe to Nordkapp, I would take the Hirsthals-Kristiansand ferry, spend time in the southwest fjord area, take E14 from Trondheim to Östersund in Sweden, and then E45 to Finland and then to Alta via Enontekiö.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 01:05 PM   #3802
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Seriously, you prefer E-45 to E6? Well, I guess you are a Finn that love the Taiga, but I then understand even less regarding your comment on forest. Surely, you willl see a lot more trees, a lot less mountains and sizeable towns, and no fjords / sea along E-45 compared with E6

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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Why travelling such a long distance, while comfortable other areas are within handreach? Such as here on E134 near existing 1x2 Røldalstunnelen.
This is a matter of taste, of course. Don't get me wrong, I travel to Hardanger almost every year and love the area, especially when the weather is OK. I go much more seldom up north, but everytime has been magic. It is about the openess combined with wild mountains and sea, and very special light, both summer (midnight sun, but also more reddish light during daytime) and winter (bluish / dusk / northern lights). Northern Norway I also enjoy in bad weather, whereas I often find the low clouds that sometimes form a ceiling on narrow west-coast fjords (and valleys) almost claustrophobic.

My personal conclusion is that in Norway it is in fact almost impossible to go wrong, except perhaps inner south-east which I find a bit uninspiring, but for me the true magic is up north.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 03:59 PM   #3803
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Seriously, you prefer E-45 to E6?
If you have to select from two boring choices, the faster is often better.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 06:29 PM   #3804
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Some example pictures from this boring road E6....approximately order from south to north, starting just north of Trondheim, and stopping just north of Narvik (the interested reader should explore the rest to Skibotn using google maps or similar ;-) )

Hell station:

Fættenfjorden, Tirpitz was anchored here during the WW2:

Stiklestad midieval church, built on the battle ground of the most famous battle of Norway at all times, where the patron saint of Norway, St. Olaf, fell in 1030 AD. 5 km turn-off from E6. St. Olaf was later buried in Trondheim, which caused massive pilgrimage as well as the construction of the Nidaros cathedral:

Steinkjer, future northern terminus of future Norwegian motorway network?:

Majavatn (in the most "boring" section Snåsa-Mosjøen):

Korgenfjellet, Lukttinden (OK, you need to follow the old road rather than the new tunnel to see this view):

Okstindan, tallest mountain of Northern Norway:

Mo i Rana. Talking about trees, Rana was traditionally seen as the northermost place where spruce could grow, but I am not sure if that is true anymore:

Crossing of the polar circle (E6 is right next to the railway):

Between Fauske and Narvik:

Mørsvikbotn:

From the Tysfjord ferry, at the bottom of the fjord Norway is only a few km wide, and there is no road going around:

Stetind again, a 15 km turnoff is needed in order to see this mountain, which competes with Snøhetta visible from E6 Trondheim-Oslo for the title "The national mountain of Norway":

Narvik, known from fighting during WW2. Its ski resort has close to 900 m vertical fall:

Rombak:
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Old June 16th, 2016, 08:23 PM   #3805
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
See eg http://www.bedrevei.no/abv-veikart/ for a better solution :
Talk about ambitious... let's just say diplomatically "I believe when I see".

I couldn't help noticing that E6 in Finnmark is rerouted over Ifjordfjell. How does that work in winter?

Also E75 seems to have its endpoint changed from Vardø to Kirkenes. This is weird since the current E75 serves Vadsø as well, and on the Finnish side the road to Kirkenes has a much lower standard. Same goes for Finnish 92, which apparently is supposed to become E69.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 08:48 PM   #3806
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Well, Finnmark has clearly not been their main focus point, the population is very sparce, and the roads are fairly decent that taken into account. I guess their main focus has been to design on the map a working backbone network. In that sense, Vadsø, as you mention, is not really relevant, with only 6 000 or so inhabitants. Sure, it should be connected to the network with decent road, but the last kms do not have to be an E-road.

Apparently at least the Ifjordfjell change has some local and professional support: https://www.nrk.no/troms/vil-flytte-...llet-1.1463885

One thing I did not notice earlier, btw is that the aforementioned Fv 17 is upgraded to an Rv again and seems to go all the way to Lofoten. That would certainly be a fun road to drive....

And yes, this plan is ambitious, but completing at least the southern Norway triangle would be great ;-)

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Old June 16th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #3807
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So the point is that since neither today's roads in Tana Valley nor Ifjordfjell are acceptable as for E road standard, one of them has to be upgraded anyway; and if Ifjordfjell is chosen for E6 and E75 is rerouted from Inari to Kirkenes, then Tana Valley loses both of its E roads and can be left as it is
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Old June 16th, 2016, 09:34 PM   #3808
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
completing at least the southern Norway triangle would be great ;-)
More precise: completing the southern Norway triangle to meet European motorway network standards. Check out the following about Norwegian hestitation to plan the E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo compared what is normal in Europe:

Opening new motorway tunnel E134 Bergen-Oslo? No, it is on the motorway A44 Kassel-Eisenach in Germany.



Compare the A44 Kassel-Eisenach with the E134 Bergen-Oslo and conclude that it is not too much to invest in a motorway between the biggest cities:

Map A44 section Kassel - Eisenach:
http://www.hna.de/bilder/2014/07/30/...236522-a44.jpg

Map E139 section Seljestad – Vagsli:
http://g.api.no/obscura/API/dynamic/...jpg?chk=28B79E

New motorway section E134 Bergen-Oslo? No, it is on the motorway A44 Kassel-Eisenach in Germany.




Length section: A44: 69 km – E134: 61 km
Number of tunnels: A44: 13 – E134: 2 (downsized version: 4)
Length tunnels: A44: 14 km – E134: 15 km
Costs A44: NOK 9.36 billion NOK – E134: NOK 14 billion (downsized version: NOK 7 billion)
Opening: A44: 2019 – E134: unknown

GDP per captica (in USD): Germany: 46 - Norway: 101
Germany is poor compared to Norway. Too expensive to pay a snow-free motorway is no excuse.

The projected motorway E134 Bergen-Oslo will be the only direct connection between East and West in Norway. The motorway A44 Kassel-Eisenach is only a shortcut, a luxurious solution, while the E139 is essential. The economical benefits for the motorway E134 Bergen-Oslo are much higher than for the motorway A44 Kassel-Eisenach.
The difference is that the governance in Germany wants to inverst in unity between East and West, while Norway doesn’t wants to pay the price for worldclass motorways. When will Norway realiste that it is no longer a nation of fishermen and farmers with village-thinking?
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Old June 17th, 2016, 07:51 AM   #3809
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I don't want the be mean but I think you already made your point very clear about German highways, and there is really no need for you to push this country x country thing here that way with 6 posts in one week. At least on this sections of SSC we don't go on flame wars like that. Also, most people's people check several threads of same continent so maybe you can post more about DE projects on DE thread?
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Old June 17th, 2016, 09:53 AM   #3810
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to push this country x country thing here that way
There is a very good reason to compare roads in Norway with roads of other countries, because it is a hot topic within Norwegian media. There have been many articles in many newspapers in Norway and it has been discussed in the government and national road administration.

Bård Hoksrud (member FRP) has warned Norway has now the slowest speed on the road between the biggest cities in Europe:

Quote:
A survey by Ramboll as compared 12 European countries showed that Norway has the lowest average speed drive measured in km/h between the cities included in the survey (Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim, Stavanger, Tromsø), by 65 km/h.
Fastest it goes in Germany. The German motorway stretch Hamburg-München tops the list with an average speed of 113 km/h.
http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-...ia/a/10060847/


Bård Hoksrud at motorway construction in Albania. Norway can learn a lot from …….. Albania. The Road Administration tries to mitigate the bad situation of Norway compared with the poorest countries in Europe like Albania, Croatia and Romania. But they have to admit that there is great need for a better Norwegian road standard.

Putting attention to the fact that Norway has an underdeveloped road network and a shame for Europe is the only thing we can do to make politicians aware that Norway needs a task force for motorways to bring this country to European standards.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 11:34 AM   #3811
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I think that everybody here agrees in general on the need for improvement of Norwegian highways (with a bit varying level of ambitions, of course), but I agree that repeatedly focusing on a single Norwegian route and comparing it with relative unrelated projects abroad become a bit tiring in the end. This is simply not the place to convince decision makers, if that is the goal.

With regards to Albania, we may have something to learn, but so do they: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
~20 times as many road fatalities per vehicle, and about 4 times as many per capita.....
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So the point is that since neither today's roads in Tana Valley nor Ifjordfjell are acceptable as for E road standard, one of them has to be upgraded anyway; and if Ifjordfjell is chosen for E6 and E75 is rerouted from Inari to Kirkenes, then Tana Valley loses both of its E roads and can be left as it is
Except "E69" in the lower (northern) part?

You seem to have very good knowledge of Finnmark, much better than the average Norwegian who probably has not even been in that huge county, which is 13 % bigger than Denmark. (I have only been there once myself, as a kid.) Hence, if you study the map carefully, you see that the only thing they promise for Finnmark is "good rural highway", and no improvements have been included in their budgets. So, in the virtual case were this plan was approved, what would happen in the beginning is that new signs would be put in place. Secondly, locals would use the new status to argue for improvements, but it would be a gradual process.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 12:02 PM   #3812
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Well, I might guess that a large share of Finnish drivers who know Norwegian roads at all, only know them in Troms and Finnmark. Probably Nordland but rarely south of Tysfjord, where the road ends as we all know.

The map actually does show a completely new section on E6 between Alta and Lakselv, cutting some 50 km, but indeed there is no mention about Ifjordfjell apart from renumbering the existing 98. Making that winter safe would probably require long tunnels, not easily justified over there.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:19 PM   #3813
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
So the point is that since neither today's roads in Tana Valley nor Ifjordfjell are acceptable as for E road standard, one of them has to be upgraded anyway; and if Ifjordfjell is chosen for E6 and E75 is rerouted from Inari to Kirkenes, then Tana Valley loses both of its E roads and can be left as it is
Earlier, the road over Ifjordfjellet was the main road, number 6. The Tana valley road was built to make a safer all-year route.

In my opinion, the E6 leg Karasjok-Tana bru is pretty acceptable because the traffic volume is low. However, they should clean the zillion bushes away, because they block the river view.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:20 PM   #3814
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Slightly off-topic question: are all coastal Norwegian ports all the way to Kirkenes ice-free year round?
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:23 PM   #3815
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However, they should clean the zillion bushes away, because they block the river view.
This is unfortunately a problem in many countries, the view from the road could be so much better without bushes or endless planted trees along the road. Along Hardangerfjord and Sognefjord the view is frequently blocked by a line of trees.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:25 PM   #3816
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Well, I might guess that a large share of Finnish drivers who know Norwegian roads at all, only know them in Troms and Finnmark. Probably Nordland but rarely south of Tysfjord, where the road ends as we all know.
The logic is easy: As the highest peaks in Finland lie in the north, the same applies to Norway. Thus, let us go to northern Norway to see mountains.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 11:57 PM   #3817
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The logic is easy: As the highest peaks in Finland lie in the north, the same applies to Norway. Thus, let us go to northern Norway to see mountains.
It's also language and money. It is possible to get accommodation in Finland, buy food to go from Finland, refill the tank in Finland and then drive a little around in a (notoriously expensive) foreign country without actually needing to talk to anyone or pay for anything while there.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 11:37 AM   #3818
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I think you already made your point very clear about German highways
Thanks for the compliment

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Also, most people's people check several threads of same continent so maybe you can post more about DE projects on DE thread?
I don't understand. Do you mean that according to the statistics of SSC people check motorways here and in several other countries?

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you can post more about DE projects on DE thread
Are you a moderator or business worker of SSC?
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Old June 18th, 2016, 03:58 PM   #3819
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This discussion is drifting off....
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Slightly off-topic question: are all coastal Norwegian ports all the way to Kirkenes ice-free year round?
Generally yes. The closest the arctic sea ice has been to Norway was 10 km in 1881, but now it is far, far, away. The gulf stream ensures that the sea water generally has a temperature of the order of 10 C, far above the -1.8 or so needed to freeze sea water. Note that different from fresh water (which has maximum density at 4 C), the whole water column has to reach this temperature, as cold sea water is heavier than warm. However, more sheltered areas and some fjords may still freeze over, depending on a range of different factors such as:
  • Fresh water supply (either from snow or rivers)
  • Wind and waves
  • Difference between high and low tide and currents
  • Water depth
  • Overal salinity
  • Air temperature and cloud cover
In practice, these various factors in fact makes south-eastern Norway more prone to ice in harbors and fjords than western, central and northern Norway. For instance, Oslofjorden tend to freeze every 10 years or so, sheltered areas or areas with brakish water freeze more frequently. It usually don't last for long though affect traffic of larger ships. In comparison, eg Trondheimfjorden has never frozen in historic times, due to its large depth and 2.30 m difference between low and high tide and strong currents. That's why the Germans decided to construct a major submarine base there during WW2.

Ice in Oslofjorden, Kattegat and Skagerak 2010

Frozen harbor in Oslofjorden

War time submarine bunker in Trondheim. To bad the concrete was not put to better use, I have heard that the bunkers contain enough to build a 6-lane motorway Trondheim-Oslo. (The Germans btw did in fact plan a motorway Trondheim-Berlin)
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This is unfortunately a problem in many countries, the view from the road could be so much better without bushes or endless planted trees along the road. Along Hardangerfjord and Sognefjord the view is frequently blocked by a line of trees.
At least in Norway most of the trees and bushes are not planted, but they represent a safety hazard as they hide moose and other larger animals. The road authorities actually are slightly better than before on clearing trees right next to the road, but there is still room for improvement (to eg Swedish standards). In general there is a lot more forest and trees in Norway than it used to be, due to far less intensive use of the land. Before, farming was common in much steeper terrain, leafy branches were stripped off trees and feeded to the livestock during winter, and in summer the livestock were gracing all over the place, to far up in the mountains.

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The logic is easy: As the highest peaks in Finland lie in the north, the same applies to Norway. Thus, let us go to northern Norway to see mountains.
Except that the highest mountains of Norway (in terms of absolute altitude) are not in the north...
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It's also language and money. It is possible to get accommodation in Finland, buy food to go from Finland, refill the tank in Finland and then drive a little around in a (notoriously expensive) foreign country without actually needing to talk to anyone or pay for anything while there.
I have always liked Finns with self-irony, but I am not always sure if that is what it is
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Old June 18th, 2016, 04:05 PM   #3820
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Are costs of travel much higher in Finnmark than in Lapland?
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