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Old June 18th, 2016, 05:21 PM   #3821
OulaL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Except that the highest mountains of Norway (in terms of absolute altitude) are not in the north...
I assume that was MattiG's point...

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I have always liked Finns with self-irony, but I am not always sure if that is what it is
We never know for sure...

However, the truth is that Norway isn't among the most popular destinations when Finns go abroad. There are some reasons: it's expensive, it's behind Sweden (except Troms and Finnmark) and Sweden is boring, and it can't practically be combined with any other destination (except Sweden which is boring).
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Old June 18th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #3822
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Are costs of travel much higher in Finnmark than in Lapland?
Yes. Even many Norwegians themselves come shopping to the border villages Kilpisjärvi and Nuorgam (population around 100 and 200 respectively, each relatively far from anything) every now and then.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 05:54 PM   #3823
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With regards to Albania, we may have something to learn, but so do they: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
~20 times as many road fatalities per vehicle, and about 4 times as many per capita.....
By launching the road safety argument Albania vs Norway, you are playing the same role as Transport Minister Marit Arnstad in 2012 tried, in an attempt to defend the failing Norwegian road policy. She said that Albania is far after Norway both in traffic safety. Instead of launching constructive plans to tackle the pain points of Norwegian roads, she used low level arguments against Albania. Are her arguments valid? Here a reply on road safety in Albania: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4539. Wordwide statistics show that motorway constructing leads to decrease of deadly accidents on main roads.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 05:59 PM   #3824
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Norway has the safest roads in all of Europe though. But a major problem is the lack of nearby alternate routes in case of accidents. Often there's no other option but to wait, possibly several hours, before an accident scene gets cleared. This is especially bad during the winter.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 06:05 PM   #3825
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14 % higher fuel prices in Norway than Finland according to http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/. No clue how that plays out in differences between remote parts of both countries.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 06:13 PM   #3826
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I found Norwegian fuel prices to vary by place, and it doesn't really matter if you fuel at an automated of full-service station. I've seen prices from around 13.50 NOK to 15.50 NOK. Most towns appear to have some sort of cartel with fuel prices very close to each other.

Swedish fuel prices appear to be closer to each other. Norwegian gasoline isn't as expensive for the Dutch as it was 2 or 5 years ago. I remember when Norwegian fuel prices were as much as € 0.30 per liter higher than in the Netherlands, but today you can expect to pay even less in Norway than along Dutch motorway service areas. The official recommended price is about the same in both countries.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 06:15 PM   #3827
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Originally Posted by Mathias Olsen View Post
By launching the road safety argument Albania vs Norway, you are playing the same role as Transport Minister Marit Arnstad in 2012 tried, in an attempt to defend the failing Norwegian road policy. She said that Albania is far after Norway both in traffic safety. Instead of launching constructive plans to tackle the pain points of Norwegian roads, she used low level arguments against Albania. Are her arguments valid? Here a reply on road safety in Albania: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4539. Wordwide statistics show that motorway constructing leads to decrease of deadly accidents on main roads.
I am not playing out any argument, I just point out that not everything is black and white, and Albania is perhaps not the most relevant example to compare with, unlike our neighboring countries and parts of North America which have more similar geography (demographic and topographic) and economy. I otherwise fully agree that motorways are safer, and that southern Norway should have a motorway network connecting the major cities of Southern Norway from Steinkjer to Stavanger. Again, this is probably not the place to convince Norwegian decision makers, here people are more or less convinced already.

I once upon a time wrote a plan how I envisaged this should be done (maps seems to have been removed):http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=365. To me both the plan and its priorities still seem sensible, if I could say so myself.
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I found Norwegian fuel prices to vary by place, and it doesn't really matter if you fuel at an automated of full-service station. I've seen prices from around 13.50 NOK to 15.50 NOK. Most towns appear to have some sort of cartel with fuel prices very close to each other.

Swedish fuel prices appear to be closer to each other. Norwegian gasoline isn't as expensive for the Dutch as it was 2 or 5 years ago. I remember when Norwegian fuel prices were as much as € 0.30 per liter higher than in the Netherlands, but today you can expect to pay even less in Norway than along Dutch motorway service areas. The official recommended price is about the same in both countries.
In the cities the different stations are following each others prices closely, but they do not seem to cooperate (which would be illegal), as prices are varying significantly from day to day, eg diesel has been below 10 NOK this year, and at that level they are clearly losing money. Although the companies try hard lock in their customers with different arrangements, prices are vey easy to compare for customers and stations with higher prices than the rest will simply lose bussiness. Typically, prices peak on Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning, decrease slowly towards the weekend and hit rock bottom Monday morning before rising sharply again to complete the cycle. However, there is not fixed pattern. These weekly variations can easily be around 20 %. Some relatively remote gas stations along the main routes sometimes have prices that compete with the cities to lure people in to buy horribly expensive food and snacks, especially if the town in question has multiple gas stations, but generally fuel prices are higher away from the cities.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; June 18th, 2016 at 07:02 PM.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 08:06 PM   #3828
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Norway has the safest roads in all of Europe though.
Depends on what Key Performance Indicator you use. When your focus is deadly accidents, you will measure the road fatalities per inhabitants per year. With this measurement, many countries in Europe are better than Norway (source: United Nations - World Health Organization, 2015, http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...S2015_data/en/ ):

1. Sweden – 2.8
2. UK – 2.9
3. Switzerland – 3.3
4. Netherlands – 3.4
5. Denmark - 3.5
6. Spain – 3.7
7. Norway – 3.8
8. Germany - 4.3
9. Iceland – 4.6
10. Finland – 4.8

There is some work to do in Norway to improve the deadly road accidents. It is a fact that a motorway network between cities is a big help to become to the top of Europe, see the countries with a better safety result on deadly accidents.
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Old June 18th, 2016, 08:14 PM   #3829
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Norway had 118 fatalities in 2015, a rate of 24 per 1 million inhabitants - the lowest rate in the world.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/norge-har-f...ker-1.12891929

UN / WHO figures seems off.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 12:13 AM   #3830
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Some road related pictures from my recent trip to Norway

E39 ferry port in Molde.



E39 on Ørskogfjellet, between Vestnes and Ålesund.



Fv 60 between Stranda and Hellesylt.



Fv 724 in Oldedalen.



Rv 13 on Vikafjellet.

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Old June 19th, 2016, 12:22 AM   #3831
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Fv 724 in Oldedalen.
I stayed at a campsite in Oldedalen on my trip through Scandinavia. A beautiful location. There are 4 or 5 campsites in the valley.

Did you also stop on the new viewing area along Fv. 60 near Hellesylt? There's a great view of Geirangerfjord from there, minus the tourist mass.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 12:36 AM   #3832
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I stayed at a campsite in Oldedalen on my trip through Scandinavia. A beautiful location. There are 4 or 5 campsites in the valley.

Did you also stop on the new viewing area along Fv. 60 near Hellesylt? There's a great view of Geirangerfjord from there, minus the tourist mass.
Yeah I did. I knew the viewpoint was placed literally just after the tunnel going south. Fortunately no one else was there at the time. On other locations though it was sometimes a RV inferno by Germans/Dutch constantly arriving.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 01:09 AM   #3833
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This discussion is drifting off....

Generally yes. The closest the arctic sea ice has been to Norway was 10 km in 1881, but now it is far, far, away. The gulf stream ensures that the sea water generally has a temperature of the order of 10 C, far above the -1.8 or so needed to freeze sea water. Note that different from fresh water (which has maximum density at 4 C), the whole water column has to reach this temperature, as cold sea water is heavier than warm. However, more sheltered areas and some fjords may still freeze over, depending on a range of different factors such as:
  • Fresh water supply (either from snow or rivers)
  • Wind and waves
  • Difference between high and low tide and currents
  • Water depth
  • Overal salinity
  • Air temperature and cloud cover
In practice, these various factors in fact makes south-eastern Norway more prone to ice in harbors and fjords than western, central and northern Norway. For instance, Oslofjorden tend to freeze every 10 years or so, sheltered areas or areas with brakish water freeze more frequently. It usually don't last for long though affect traffic of larger ships. In comparison, eg Trondheimfjorden has never frozen in historic times, due to its large depth and 2.30 m difference between low and high tide and strong currents. That's why the Germans decided to construct a major submarine base there during WW2.
Yes, Gulf Stream extends as far N-E as Longyearbyen and Murmansk. In winter there's more ice in the Baltic Sea at 55-60°N (they even drive across ice between mainland Estonia and islands), than in the Barents Sea at 70°N (Murmansk it's strategic to Russia because it's a year-round port and Kirkeness has regular passenger service).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 19th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #3834
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Are costs of travel much higher in Finnmark than in Lapland?
Norway is probably one of the most expensive countries in the world.

Anyway, it would be funny to ask international people, which jurisdiction among Finnmark and Lapland is in Norway, and which one is in Finland. Probably 99% would answer wrong (Finnmark -> Finland).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 07:08 AM   #3835
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The language of the Finns and the "Lapps" (sami) are closely related, though.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 08:12 AM   #3836
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Norway had 118 fatalities in 2015, a rate of 24 per 1 million inhabitants - the lowest rate in the world.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/norge-har-f...ker-1.12891929

UN / WHO figures seems off.
One can argue, however, that Norway's road safety is unusual in that it's derived from the fact that the roads are relatively inconvenient to use, relative to the airlines for passengers and sealanes for freight, and so they are not the country's transportation trunk.

From this it follows that road improvements that create more traffic would result in a regression towards the global (or at least Scandinavian) mean for Norwegian road safety ... simply because more traffic = more accidents, and more traffic on the motorways = more last-mile traffic = more accidents.

This puts Norway in rather a strange spot, does it not?
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Old June 19th, 2016, 08:14 AM   #3837
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Anyway, are there plans to roll out complete electrical charging infrastructure to Nordkap, and all along E16 and Rv-7?
Enova has the goal that by 1/11-17, there will atleast one fast-charger location per 50km in the national roads. Rv7 already covered - E16 will be ready this year.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 09:58 AM   #3838
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Norway is probably one of the most expensive countries in the world.
Yes it is expensive, but there are way to alleviate the high cost as a tourist, such as not buying booze, don't eat out all the time and stay in a cabin instead of a hotel. Cabins are all over the place, along main roads you can find them every 10 km or less, except for very remote areas. There are over 1,000 campsites in Norway and practically all offer cabins.

Supermarket prices in Norway are usually at least twice as high as in the Netherlands, but on the other hand the Netherlands is the only western European country with food prices under the EU average, despite a service supermarket (somewhat more expensive) being market leader.

I went camping in Norway, I did not found it particularly expensive. I paid mostly in the € 15 - 22 per night range. A bit more expensive than say France (usually € 10 per night) but not unaffordable. The Swedish campsites I use are often more expensive (especially those on the west coast!) Another factor in Scandinavia is that you often pay for a pitch - regardless of how big your travel group is (often you'll pay the same rate for 5 or 1 person), which makes camping for families quite affordable compared to southern Europe.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 10:54 AM   #3839
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One can argue, however, that Norway's road safety is unusual in that it's derived from the fact that the roads are relatively inconvenient to use, relative to the airlines for passengers and sealanes for freight, and so they are not the country's transportation trunk.

From this it follows that road improvements that create more traffic would result in a regression towards the global (or at least Scandinavian) mean for Norwegian road safety ... simply because more traffic = more accidents
Yes, road traffic as in the rest of Europe will give another image of safety in Norway. One example may be the E39 Kristiansand-Stavanger and to the north. The headlines of newspapers on the west coast were only in 2016 more that four times filled with frontal collisions on E39, some of them with deadly accidents.



When it comes to similar conditions as in the rest of Europe the road accidents are the same. Then the weakness of the Norwegian roads comes on the surface because it misses safer 2x2 motorways between any of its 100 000 cities.
The good news is that the upgrade of E39 Stavanger-Kristiansand will be 2x2 motorway in 2023 and one of the reasons was the safety argument.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 11:10 AM   #3840
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Yes it is expensive, but there are way to alleviate the high cost as a tourist, such as not buying booze, don't eat out all the time and stay in a cabin instead of a hotel. Cabins are all over the place, along main roads you can find them every 10 km or less, except for very remote areas. There are over 1,000 campsites in Norway and practically all offer cabins.

Supermarket prices in Norway are usually at least twice as high as in the Netherlands, but on the other hand the Netherlands is the only western European country with food prices under the EU average, despite a service supermarket (somewhat more expensive) being market leader.

I went camping in Norway, I did not found it particularly expensive. I paid mostly in the € 15 - 22 per night range. A bit more expensive than say France (usually € 10 per night) but not unaffordable. The Swedish campsites I use are often more expensive (especially those on the west coast!) Another factor in Scandinavia is that you often pay for a pitch - regardless of how big your travel group is (often you'll pay the same rate for 5 or 1 person), which makes camping for families quite affordable compared to southern Europe.
Another thing, in Scandinavian countries, an adventure traveller can plant its tent anywhere on public land and sleep there. This is illegal in central-southern Europe.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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