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Old June 20th, 2016, 07:15 PM   #3881
OnTheNorthRoad
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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Yes, one can do. But about what kind of society are we talking? We are here in democratic Europe, where people have a direct choice about the governance of society, isn't it? When you ask people about their favorite transport they will answer........ a car.
Not uniformly, no, and since we're investing in infrastructure for decades ahead, it might be more relevant to ask younger people.

There are also a number of other variables to consider, such as externalities and overarching vision of city development and sustainability as well as efficiency and social utility.

This is not as simple as the car lobby makes it out to be, if that was the case, europeans would prefer our cities to be as car-centric as american cities and they don't.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 07:30 PM   #3882
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This is not as simple as the car lobby makes it out to be, if that was the case, europeans would prefer our cities to be as car-centric as american cities and they don't.
Car lobby? In Norway? Where are your arguments? When there was a car lobby such as in Germany, France, Slovakia, Poland, etc. with a car industry, all big cities in Norway were connected with motorways. Today, Norway is in Europe #1 with the slowest traveling connections by car. Not even two cities with a population of more than 100 000 inhabitants are connected by motorway. You have to go to a developing country to find a similar country.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 07:43 PM   #3883
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Although Norwegian cities may not be 'car-centric', 89% of passenger kilometers in Norway are by car. This is on the higher end in Europe (most countries are in the low 80s or high 70s for the modal share of car driving).
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Old June 20th, 2016, 07:51 PM   #3884
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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Yes, one can do. But about what kind of society are we talking? We are here in democratic Europe, where people have a direct choice about the governance of society, isn't it? When you ask people about their favorite transport they will answer........ a car.
Sure. Cars are popular, and for obvious reasons. And most Norwegians know very well that we cannot live without them, particularly not in rural areas where public transport is not a viable option (basically 95% of Norway...). In most such areas in this country, motorways won't happen - the traffic is simply too low. Nonetheless, most people in rural Norway want reasonably safe and efficient roads, and that demand has to be balanced against the need for proper motorways in the more populated areas. Bulilding a motorway in one valley and ignoring the neighbouring one is not a viable option. Local politics have significant national impact up here, for obvious reasons: a considerable amount of our GDP comes from rather remote areas.

In addition, we actually trust our politicians. Yes, we criticize them left, right and centre, but we generally vote for the more moderate centre-right or centre-left parties. And when it comes down to the fundamental decisions, we seek agreement and consensus, including left- and right-leaning parties in the process. This makes Norwegian politics fairly predictable, but sometimes slower to change than some would like to see. It can be frustrating, but it is a system that has served us well for decades. As for referendums, we keep those for the truly exceptional decisions - independence from Sweden, republic or monarchy, EU membership... and banning the sale of alcohol...
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Old June 20th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #3885
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Norway to me is a bit "sprawly", and I don't mean like in the US, but that the population is less compact than Sweden, meaning a more vivid rural environment which is good, but it also comes with higher car dependency as its harder to cover a scattered low density population distribution with public transport. The small house to apartment ratio is way higher than Sweden also, even in cities. I can't speak for the Oslo area though as I was like 9 years old when I was there.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:00 PM   #3886
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Although Norwegian cities may not be 'car-centric', 89% of passenger kilometers in Norway are by car. This is on the higher end in Europe (most countries are in the low 80s or high 70s for the modal share of car driving).
I think they are quite car centric, they're just very small. I meant biggish cities in europe in general; norwegians might be different, I don't know, but I still think they want their cities to be dense, cater to pedestrians and PT if they got to choose by actions, not just by answering a q about whether they like to drive cars. Apartment prices in inner Oslo reflect some of those actions.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:14 PM   #3887
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Public transport, walking and cycling work well in inner city areas. However, the far majority of the urban population does not live in inner city areas. Norwegian metropolitan areas are fairly sprawled out.

The main road network in Oslo is very substandard for a city of this size, in particular many trips that don't begin or end in the inner city have to go through substandard 'motorways'. The geography of Oslo is also not as favorable, many trips are circular or tangential in character, but traffic has to go through narrow two-lane streets and substandard motorways.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:15 PM   #3888
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The small house to apartment ratio is way higher than Sweden also, even in cities. I can't speak for the Oslo area though as I was like 9 years old when I was there.
Even in the Oslo area, one-family housing is far more common than in most other European countries. We are also very fond of owning our homes...
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:24 PM   #3889
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Public transport, walking and cycling work well in inner city areas. However, the far majority of the urban population does not live in inner city areas. Norwegian metropolitan areas are fairly sprawled out.

The main road network in Oslo is very substandard for a city of this size, in particular many trips that don't begin or end in the inner city have to go through substandard 'motorways'. The geography of Oslo is also not as favorable, many trips are circular or tangential in character, but traffic has to go through narrow two-lane streets and substandard motorways.
My point is that we should strive to make inner city living much more dominant at least in Oslo, and the story about the car and how its use should go down is intertwined with this effort, I don't really care what they want in western, middle or northern norway (but I wish Bergen and Trondheim all the best,but I don't have high hopes), but I'm sure all the ambitious, young people in car dependant, rural areas will want to move to Oslo or abroad if our cities don't become more attractive and less sprawly and car dependant. With the right developments, Oslo muni can easily house 1 million people that don't need to use cars. That would also, given the right developments, be a superiorly attractive city in Norway.

If it's really worth it to spend a ton of money to upgrade the substandard roads (but why? safety? prestige?), that's fine I guess as long as capacity isn't substantially increased with the known, negative externalities that will bring with it in terms of pollution, congestion and so on.

Last edited by OnTheNorthRoad; June 20th, 2016 at 08:30 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:29 PM   #3890
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Norwegian metropolitan areas are fairly sprawled out.
Yes. Oslo agglomeration is 1.8 million inhabitants over a greater area. Bergen-Haugesund-Stavanger area has more than 0.5 million. This kind of population concentration are comparable with many other agglomerations in Europe. Therefore, the cry for a motorway between East and West will become louder and louder. The impact on society will be greater after 2040 when Norway needs 21-st century export connections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The main road network in Oslo is very substandard for a city of this size, in particular many trips that don't begin or end in the inner city have to go through substandard 'motorways'. The geography of Oslo is also not as favorable, many trips are circular or tangential in character, but traffic has to go through narrow two-lane streets and substandard motorways.
That means a loss for the economy and one can calculate how many billions it is every year. The benefits to establish an adequate motorway network by Ring 4 and a new Rv23 bridge or tunnel are therefore high.

Last edited by Mathias Olsen; June 20th, 2016 at 08:46 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:42 PM   #3891
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Aren't Bergen and Stavanger too distant and unconnected each other to be considered part of the same metropolitan area?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:48 PM   #3892
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Of course they are Metropolitan area is a city definition (the most expansive). Bergen-Haugesund-Stavanger is obviously not one city. The most common way to define the borders of a metropolitan area is through commuter thresholds, but it might also reflect defined city regions.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:51 PM   #3893
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Aren't Bergen and Stavanger too distant and unconnected each other to be considered part of the same metropolitan area?
Not in near future. In 2023, E39 Haugesund-Stavanger-Kristiansand motorway will be open. Bergen will follow later, when new bridges and/or tunnels on E39 motorway will be completed. Then, we can talk about an integrated Bergen-Stavanger agglomeration.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 08:56 PM   #3894
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No, we can't, they would still have several hours of travelling time. That doesn't cut it.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 09:01 PM   #3895
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Metropolitan area is a city definition (the most expansive). Bergen-Haugesund-Stavanger is obviously not one city. The most common way to define the borders of a metropolitan area is through commuter thresholds, but it might also reflect defined city regions.
Many definitions are possible about the density of city population. You can distinguish city, urban and metro. You can also have several definitions of an agglomeration. In descriptions of the population density of western Norway, there are valid arguments about common economical interest of Stavanger-Bergen with e.g. oil industry and agriculture.

Bergen-Haugesund-Stavanger is ...... "The strong and dynamic south-west town belt (Read: agglomeration) from Bergen to Stavanger (that) will be more and more integrated in the near future due to road building (Read: E39 ferry-free motorway) and economic concentration and integration" (Jørgen Amdam, New Regions, Page 26, http://www.hivolda.no/neted/upload/a...ions_Loven.ppt).

Note that there is intense air traffic between the cities. The ferry-free E39 in future will help to the unity between Bergen and Stavanger, to more sustainability in the area and faster connections.

Last edited by Mathias Olsen; June 20th, 2016 at 10:39 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #3896
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No, we can't, they would still have several hours of travelling time. That doesn't cut it.
Bergen city center - Stavanger city center will be not much more than 2 hours when the new bridges and tunnels are ready before the end of next decade. No extreme value for an agglomeration of (then) 0.8 million, or not? You should be aware about the big impact a motorway has on society. In 2023 there will be a big revolution when Haugesund will be connected with Stavanger and it will also reduce Bergen-Stavanger.

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Old June 20th, 2016, 11:06 PM   #3897
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Calling 800 k people within more than 2 hours an urban agglomoration is pretty far fetched, its not like anyone living in Stavanger would go to work in Bergen, or even Haugesund, every day. Otherwise I am in no doubt such a motorway between Bergen and Stavanger would strengthen the economy of the area, especially Bergen and Haugesund. However, politics is always about priorities and making the best investments first, and you probably have to wait a while before Haugesund-Os is completed.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 11:37 PM   #3898
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My diagnosis: you guys might just as well discuss religion.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 11:38 AM   #3899
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Or German beers?

In any case, I think population growth is a relevant parameter in this discussion. SSB predict 6 million in Norway already in 2030, the fastest +1 million growth ever in Norway:
https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/sta...aar/2016-06-21


If you look at the immigration rates assumed the prediction does not appear particularly conservative.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 04:18 PM   #3900
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population growth is a relevant parameter in this discussion
True. It is an argument for more motorway construction. Big cities Oslo and Stavanger are favorites for most immigrants. That will put more weight on the balance to build more motorways.
Together with the economical need for better export transport from the west coast, and the fact that compared with Europe, Norway has some work to do for motorway construction, we may expect something of the upcoming Motorway Plan the government promised.

Here my guess, outside already ongoing projects:

1. E39 Haugesund-Bergen after 2025
2. E134 Odda-Drammen after 2030
3. Motorway Oslo-Trondheim after 2030
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