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Old June 23rd, 2016, 05:18 PM   #3921
ChrisZwolle
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Saltstraumen Bridge

Does anyone know if there used to be a prior bridge across Saltstraumen (Fv. 17) south of Bodø? Norwegian Wikipedia doesn't mention it, the current bridge opened in 1978, and I don't think there was a complete lack of a connection before 1978, perhaps an older bridge or a ferry. I doubt if a ferry directly across Saltstraumen ever operated, but could there have been one across the Saltfjord to Bodø? The only other alternative is to drive all the way around the fjord via Rognan and Fauske.

Saltstraumen bru:
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 07:41 PM   #3922
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There have always been boats in Saltstraumen, both to carry people across and through and due to the irrestistible fishing. Of course, the locals know/knew to time their activities, and they also had a local boat variety that better could handle the whirlpools.

With regards to ferries, there were at least a ferry across in 1965 (well, actually a bit to the south of it), at which time there was no bridge. I am sure this continued until 1978 (check out the old map http://www.kartverket.no/historiske/...r_k13_1965.jpg )
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 07:42 PM   #3923
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Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
moving goods transport from rail to road is not a realistic scenario, is it?
I am not against goods transported by rail. But let the market mechanism decide, that’ s better for economy. IMO it will be good to stimulate bulk cargo, dangerous chemicals and containers via railways. But it is not only a top-down case, also the people need some freedom how to transport.

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Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
more and more goods have to be transported by rail.
Much cargo needs quick delivery for acceptable costs. Trucks and vans are capable to meet those requirements in online market society. Decision makers are well aware that forcing more East - West cargo via rail will increase the costs of living in Bergen-Haugesund-Stavanger, with negative impact on economy. They should look at all aspects what is good for society.



image @Ingenioren
We can see the preference for much cargo transport to motorways. Check it out: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=3757
E134 motorway via Haukeli will facilitate higher netto social and economic benefits within cargo transport.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 08:00 PM   #3924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
With regards to ferries, there were at least a ferry across in 1965 (well, actually a bit to the south of it), at which time there was no bridge. I am sure this continued until 1978 (check out the old map http://www.kartverket.no/historiske/...r_k13_1965.jpg )
Thanks, great map There appear to be some old routes leading to the water at the location of the ferries on that map.

Is the map Swedish or did they switch from ö t ø at some point after 1965?

It's incredible how impractical driving was in Norway until relatively recently (compared to other European countries). Very narrow roads, few bridges and a lot of small ferries. Fylkesvei 17 is still somewhat impractical due to the number of remaining ferries (6). Of course E6 is the main road for north-south traffic and likely has always been.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 09:35 PM   #3925
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"ö" was used more in Norway before, at least in technical writing. The Germans produced quite a lot maps during the WW2 which were sold after the war, but "ö" and "Ö" can also be found on Norwegian produced maps both before and after the war.

The main "road" N-S in Northern Norway has been the sea for most of our history. The boat traffic has on the other hand actually been quite significant due to the seasonal rich cod fisheries of Lofoten which peak during winter.

It was possible to travel by car through Nordland county for the first time (and with more ferries than today), as late as 1941. The German occupants ordered, and constructed, several improvements of the road during WWII, eg the first road across Korgenfjellet, but at a great expense of lives of mostly Yugoslav POWs. In the beginning, the road was not open throughout the winter, and Saltfjellet become winter-open as late as 1968. Wikipedia actually has two articles on the history of E6 in Nordland, but the first general one only in Norwegian, the second one ("blood road") also has a short German version (it is actually a bit strange if there is no Balkan version on this):
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 09:46 PM   #3926
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's incredible how impractical driving was in Norway until relatively recently (compared to other European countries).
That was also my experience when I entered for the first time this beautiful and charming country Norway. All went fine, till I passed Lillehammer...... on the way to Geiranger the road became more and more challenging and on the way to the valley I had to use many learned lessons from the Alps ...
When Norway will realise that tourism will be stimulated by more European standard roads to tourist attractions I will do better Norway promotion.....
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 10:23 PM   #3927
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That was also my experience when I entered for the first time this beautiful and charming country Norway. All went fine, till I passed Lillehammer...... on the way to Geiranger the road became more and more challenging and on the way to the valley I had to use many learned lessons from the Alps ...
When Norway will realise that tourism will be stimulated by more European standard roads to tourist attractions I will do better Norway promotion.....
Objection. These kinds of "adventurous" roads used to be an attraction for "continental" tourists. From a tourists point of view, it is sad that more and more of these roads disappear or are already gone. Of course, residents need quick and safe roads to get from A to B. But from a tourist's point of view, it is sad. Although some of these roads are being preserved now.

Admittedly, there was a lack of touristic infrastructure until not many years ago. There has been done some efforts to be able to deal with the increasing number of tourists (Viewpoints, rest areas etc.) But still, I hope that Norway will never become "European Standard" by means of tourism. I hope they will find their own way. Otherwise a lot of originality will be lost. In other words: don't make it just another Disneyland. Thanks.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 10:59 PM   #3928
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Norway is very large, so the tourist crowds are contained in small areas. For example there were busloads of tourists going up the roads on either side of Geiranger, but drive 15 kilometers and you're alone again.

These viewing points are amazing. However, after driving through all that spectaculair scenery for a few days, you'll become a bit numb about it. Every bend in the road displays yet another scenic view, but after hours and days of driving around it somehow becomes too much to process.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 11:04 PM   #3929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
These viewing points are amazing. However, after driving through all that spectaculair scenery for a few days, you'll become a bit numb about it. Every bend in the road displays yet another scenic view, but after hours and days of driving around it somehow becomes too much to process.
I was thinking about this too. But I mixed my trip with visiting cities.
I think this is a good thing to do to not get "bored" on a trip, mix things up
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 11:46 PM   #3930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Objection. These kinds of "adventurous" roads used to be an attraction for "continental" tourists. From a tourists point of view, it is sad that more and more of these roads disappear or are already gone. Of course, residents need quick and safe roads to get from A to B. But from a tourist's point of view, it is sad. Although some of these roads are being preserved now.
Agree. Most tourists visiting Norway are interested in scenic views, not motorways. As a rule of thumb, the more windy and narrow the road is the better tourist experience it provides. For example, the most interesting parts on E134 are those old roads in Dysrkar and Seljestad not being E134, and bypassing the long tunnels.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 11:59 PM   #3931
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I don't believe either, that air traffic will be moved to road traffic.
To be honest, today I also should go by airline. The reality in 2016 is that it takes only 3,5 hours by plane from Bergen city center to Oslo city center and costs are NOK 2000, while a car trip over E134 Haukeli takes 8 hours. That the costs are less when you have a Tesla, home brew electric or budget electricity doesn’ t compensate for me. Just check it out on online route planners. Despite the waiting time at the airports with check in and check out till near future, all will still prefer the airline.



But look at the signs on the wall. The East – West road will be shorter and faster every year. Every year you will see traveling reductions. Finally, somewhere before 2043, Bergen-Oslo will be one day 3, 5 hours – as fast a by plane. It doesn’ t need so much phantasy that for many people the benefits of car driving will be better than going by plane. Just look at similar inter city connections in the Nordic. The electric car adds silence, comfort, privacy, freedom and joy to the trip.



When current road upgrade plans on the east –west road are completed we may see already next decade this mass shift from airlines to car.
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Old June 24th, 2016, 12:26 AM   #3932
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To be honest, today I also should go by airline. The reality in 2016 is that it takes only 3,5 hours by plane from Bergen city center to Oslo city center and costs are NOK 2000, while a car trip over E134 Haukeli takes 8 hours. T
Without luggage you usually also can go from home to home, eg allow local PT, in addition within 3.5 hours.

I am not sure if 2000 is one way or roundtrip. One-way I usually get signicantly below 2000 on domestic bussiness/impulsive flights. On private flights where you can plan ahead the price is much lower also on roundtrip tickets. Of course there is local travel charges in addition, but 2000 is expensive.

As mentioned before, there are other roads than Oslo-Bergen that has to be improved in this country. No need to rant about it in every post.
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Old June 24th, 2016, 11:10 AM   #3933
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Without luggage you usually also can go from home to home, eg allow local PT, in addition within 3.5 hours.
Your alternative local PT calculation is welcome, here is my calculation, done with online services, without waiting time for delayed plane, bus and train:
Bergen city (Vaskerelvsmauet) - Bergen airport: 12 minutes walking + 32 minutes bus trip + 5 minutes average waiting time + 1 hour airport check in
Oslo Gardermoen – Bergen airport: 50 minutes
Oslo Gardermoen airport - Oslo S – Oslo (Lybekkergata): 30 minutes airport check out + 22 minutes + walking time 6 minutes
Total traveling time = 3 hours 37 minutes.

Quote:
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I am not sure if 2000 is one way or roundtrip. One-way I usually get signicantly below 2000 on domestic bussiness/impulsive flights.
2000 is the total sum, shuttle bus in Bergen: 100; train in Oslo: 150; single ticket 1750, an average.

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there are other roads than Oslo-Bergen that has to be improved in this country.
True, but isn't Bergen/Haugesund/Stavanger – Oslo, or West-East the backbone of the Norwegian transport structure? Isn't it more than any other combination together in Norway? Isn’t it true that also that need to be considered? Remember that there is also profit for Trondheim with such an improved connection, because also Bergen/Haugesund/Stavanger – Tromsø/Trondheim/ Ålesund will be faster via Oslo.

Last edited by Mathias Olsen; June 24th, 2016 at 11:16 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #3934
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E6 Hålogaland Bridge

The first of four saddles has been lifted on top of the Hålogaland Bridge tower. The cables will run across it. Each saddle weighs 20 tons.





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Old June 24th, 2016, 07:47 PM   #3935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias Olsen View Post
Your alternative local PT calculation is welcome, here is my calculation, done with online services, without waiting time for delayed plane, bus and train:
Bergen city (Vaskerelvsmauet) - Bergen airport: 12 minutes walking + 32 minutes bus trip + 5 minutes average waiting time + 1 hour airport check in
Oslo Gardermoen – Bergen airport: 50 minutes
Oslo Gardermoen airport - Oslo S – Oslo (Lybekkergata): 30 minutes airport check out + 22 minutes + walking time 6 minutes
Total traveling time = 3 hours 37 minutes.



2000 is the total sum, shuttle bus in Bergen: 100; train in Oslo: 150; single ticket 1750, an average.
OK, your hour for check-in and 50 minutes to get on the train more than explains the difference. Most domestic travels are without baggage, in which case this delay at least can be cut in half. I do not know the local details of Bergen well enough, but I will argue that nothing is more Oslo city center than Oslo S. Again, 1750 is far above what I normally pay even on business travel.
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True, but isn't Bergen/Haugesund/Stavanger – Oslo, or West-East the backbone of the Norwegian transport structure? Isn't it more than any other combination together in Norway? Isn’t it true that also that need to be considered? Remember that there is also profit for Trondheim with such an improved connection, because also Bergen/Haugesund/Stavanger – Tromsø/Trondheim/ Ålesund will be faster via Oslo.
No, E134 is and will never be more than a limb, actually. Important, but not more than the real backbone (E6, irrespective if parts are rerouted to Rv 3 or not ) and not even close to being the most important limb, that would be E18. Sure, if we agree with yours and berlinwroclaw's assumption that all people of Rogaland and Hordaland will use E134 (which in fact is quite far fetched if you look at the map), almost 1 M people will have its needs for travel to Oslo served by this road. For most of the remaining 4.2 M people in Norway, however, this road is not and will never be very important. Even for people in Hordaland and Rogaland, the most important route ahead most likely will be E39 southward.

The most important routes to improve first are those that are so underdimensioned that they are regularly clogged and are leading to many deaths, such as eg. E18, E134 to Drammen - Kongsberg, E14 to Kongsvinger, Rv 3 Stange-Rena, rv 25 Hamar - Elverum, E6 Stange to Lillehammer and again Ulsberg - Steinkjer, and sections of E39.

Then we should start to complete the rest of the national network, considering cost /benefit ratio. E134 would certainly be up there somewhere, together with many other routes. If we for simplicity only consider Bergen - Oslo vs Trondheim - Oslo, it seems obvious to me that E134 should be behind in the queue (if we need one), due to E134's high cost. Remember that Trondheim - Oslo for most of the route has significantly higher, and never lower, traffic than the combination of various routes which can be said to end up in Bergen or Haugesund today. Remember that Trondheim - Oslo has a huge catchment area, as it in fact serves as a backbone with many connecting “limbs”. Unlike E134, where eg Hordaland also has an alternative route via E134, the E6/Rv3 is also the only relevant link to the world for great parts of the country. Due geography, it is also likely that the east-west traffic will continue to be more distributed than south - north. This, and the fact that E134 mostly passes through sparsely populated areas, will ensure that E6 (or Rv3, whatever is developed) will continue to have higher average traffic than E134.

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; June 24th, 2016 at 07:57 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2016, 09:47 PM   #3936
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Thanks for your review of my PT calculations

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to complete the rest of the national network, considering cost /benefit ratio.
Right. The netto social benefits of E134 Bergen-Oslo are 19 billion, according to respected consulting companies. What are the netto social benefits of Trondheim-Oslo or any other national road infrastructure project? When we know those facts, we may discuss on a less subjective way. Personally, I would like to see a motorway Trondheim-Oslo as soon as possible, but the government will look at a national perspective.

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Even for people in Hordaland and Rogaland, the most important route ahead most likely will be E39 southward.
You are right for the near future. E39 motorway Stavanger-Kristiansand will be ready in 2023. It will take 80 minutes, so Stavanger-Oslo via Kristiansand will be 5 hours, that is more than 3 hours faster than with E134 in 2016. But E134 is in 2016 already shorter than via Kristiansand. Planned improvements can cut the distance with 92 km and reduce the time to 3,5 hours. After 2023, every year the balance E39-E134 will change in advantage of the E134 because of ongoing improvements.
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Old June 25th, 2016, 01:12 AM   #3937
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Then we should start to complete the rest of the national network, considering cost /benefit ratio.
In theory, yes.

But anyone having involved in cost/benefit ratio calculations, like me, know that such calculations are subject to easy manipulation. In addition, they typically are pretty sensitive to small changes in input parameters and weighing. I am sure that for each four competing choices (Oslo-Bergen over E134, Rv7 and E16, and Oslo-Trondheim) there will be calculations showing the best score.

In addition, the C/B ratio in only one input item to the decision making. In every country such investments are agreed at the political layer. The politicians might even just ignore the C/B calculations, because they also know that the calculations may be manipulated.
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Old June 25th, 2016, 01:37 AM   #3938
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Yes, I know. Not many years ago we had quite a few (mostly privately ordered, like the Haukeli study above) studies by reputed organizations concluding that high speed trains would be a resounding economic success in Norway. I also actually see this very well in my own field. But in any case, I think cost /benefit should be a goal, but what "benefit" means should be up to the politicians to decide, and costs are often very hard to predict. In Norway, more than most countries, I believe, politicians first at least historically has manipulated also the quantitative parameters, by eg setting high discount rates and/or low traffic growth rates, and keep meddling also after the criteria have been defined by. Certain areas of the country are incredibly much better at attracting road funding than others....

In any case, I in fact beleive that most of the roads suggested by campaigns with a national perspective like "Bedrevei.no" would be economical beneficial for the country, including a Haukeli motorway with a Bergen arm, but it is far from the only, or currently, most important road project, and bringing it up in every post here is futile and must be even more irritating for foreigners that might visit the thread to learn something...
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Old June 25th, 2016, 01:50 AM   #3939
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With that much money around, making E16 completely ferry-free should be a priority.
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Old June 25th, 2016, 10:30 AM   #3940
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With that much money around, making E16 completely ferry-free should be a priority.
Absolutely! E01, too.
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