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Old July 18th, 2016, 05:51 AM   #4021
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So the lack of motorways shouldn't be a concern for tourist purposes. In Norway, travelling is part of the tourist experience, as opposed to France or Italy where travel is just a way to get to your destination as fast as possible.
Probably true on average, but Italy in particular also has its share of places where roads are part of the attraction. Amalfi coast probably being probably the most famous example.

As for affordable mountains the best bet is probably Caucasus. Flights to get there are generally also not too expensive, but it's not yet a mainstream destination for Europeans. I do recommend it very much, though.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 06:59 AM   #4022
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This is not a motorway interchange, nor is it too easy to make one in this place. Arriving from the south (as the one taking this picture is) and after exiting E18, one needs to turn left through a roundabout in order to get to E134. Another tunnel begins right after that roundabout going below E18.

The flow from E18 north to E134 (which obviously is more important anyway) is a little more straightforward; even though that involves a turn of 360 degrees, in that direction the roundabout can be bypassed.

A coming Lierdiagonal will make this interchange less important in some years time. The Lierdiagonal is an actual proposed motorway by Statens vegvesen, and will make an important part of a new E134 main connection east-west.

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Old July 18th, 2016, 04:04 PM   #4023
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What would the share of tunnels be? 70-80 % ?
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Old July 18th, 2016, 09:17 PM   #4024
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^ Probably.

In my experience tourists are largelly following the "motorways" or in this case tunnels. Since this is the E134 fan tread here is one of the most scenic landscapes it passes trough and there were many cars in the tunnel and very few on the alternative mountain road despite it being well signed:

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Old July 18th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #4025
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A coming Lierdiagonal will make this interchange less important in some years time. The Lierdiagonal is an actual proposed motorway by Statens vegvesen, and will make an important part of a new E134 main connection east-west.
It will be great when Lierdiagonal, the development of an E134 tunnel from Lier to Nedre Eiker, will be in the new National Transport Plan (NTP) 2018-2029. We may calculate a faster time Bergen-Oslo than 3,5 hours, especially when the tunnels will allow a speed limit of 110 km/h. We will know next year
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:02 PM   #4026
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As for affordable mountains the best bet is probably Caucasus. Flights to get there are generally also not too expensive, but it's not yet a mainstream destination for Europeans. I do recommend it very much, though.
That's not an easy region to get around, considering visa requirements, unfamiliar languages, some borders closed and some dangerous areas due to conflicts and minefields.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 12:18 PM   #4027
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
^ Probably.

In my experience tourists are largelly following the "motorways" or in this case tunnels. Since this is the E134 fan tread here is one of the most scenic landscapes it passes trough and there were many cars in the tunnel and very few on the alternative mountain road despite it being well signed:
It is hard to imagine what would be less attractive to tourists than a motorway in Norway.

The scenic alternative road over Røldalsfjellet you show is far from being promoted as an touristic road and it is not signed as an alternative to the tunnel section. The only sign leading to the road is a small black-on-white one displaying "Røldalsfjellet". Thus, about zero percent of the random travellers are likely to find that road.

That reflects the general attitude in Norway: The gems are hidden unless they are designated as National Tourist Routes. Finding the interesting roads needs a lot of homework and map research.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 06:31 PM   #4028
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It is hard to imagine what would be less attractive to tourists than a motorway in Norway.
Do you know that there are worldwide case studies in abundance that Motorways will make it easier to reach your favorite tourist destination? When you have reached your favorite area, you can always rent a mountain bike, SUV, jeep, etc to do more challenging trips. Remember that most people go with wife and kids. The new 4-lane E134 mountain motorway at nearly 1000 m has one of the best snow views in Norway and will be the motorway in Europe with the closed distance to all year snow.











Furthermore there will be direct access to unique tourist attractions like a one of the world's most beautiful waterfalls: Langfoss, the 5-th highest waterfall in Norway. It is situated on the E134 by the Åkrafjord. Chosen by CNN as top 10 waterfall in the world, only to be reached by E134. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/0...ul.waterfalls/



Is that attractive or not?
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Old July 19th, 2016, 07:25 PM   #4029
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I'm not getting into a new round of what kind of standard of roads we will eventually see along major Norwegian highway corridors, but what is certain is that new roads will be less scenic than many of the current ones. Mainly because there will be more and longer tunnels (even 20+ km ones will probably be fairly common in the future), but also because these new road alignments often go through less exposed terrain (i.e. less spectacular) than what we see today. Most old roads will remain, some will be closed and used as hiking and cycling routes, some will even be returned to nature completely. Thus, finding the truly spectacular roads will be down to the map-reading skills of the individual tourist and the ability of the road administration to sign alternative routes. Unfortunately, since tolls are an integral part of road financing and likely to remain so, the road administration are reluctant to signpost alternative routes, particularly those which are toll-free through routes.

Thus, for the nature-obsessed road geek, quality maps and perhaps even a similar tour guide are essential. Sure, online map services and the car's GPS are very useful tools of the trade, but you need something more to find both the hidden gems and the more mundane niceties. There are plenty of both to be found. In general, I would recommend to avoid E routes and main green-numbered national routes and seek out county roads - with and without en route numbers - as long as time is not of the essence. You'll see and experience more, and roads aren't necessarily that much worse either.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 08:49 PM   #4030
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That's not an easy region to get around, considering visa requirements, unfamiliar languages, some borders closed and some dangerous areas due to conflicts and minefields.
Yes, it's not quite for a "Sunday tourist" although visas are not needed for Armenia and Georgia and as long as you stay out of the break away regions and somer border areas you'll be perfectly safe. I found the people there to be very friendly. Helps if you speak some Russian, but it's not a must.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 10:37 PM   #4031
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
I'm not getting into a new round of what kind of standard of roads we will eventually see along major Norwegian highway corridors, but what is certain is that new roads will be less scenic than many of the current ones. Mainly because there will be more and longer tunnels (even 20+ km ones will probably be fairly common in the future), but also because these new road alignments often go through less exposed terrain (i.e. less spectacular) than what we see today.
It is true the high road above 1000 m will be skipped because they cannot guarantee 100% snow-free roads all year.



However still much will remain and the visitor can always take the junction at Røldal to go over the more scenic present road, especially in summer. The new E139 mountain tunnels will still bring awesome view of the mountains, such as here near junction at Røldal between the Seljestad tunnel and Haukeli tunnel.





Also the view at the valley near Odda will remain:

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Old July 19th, 2016, 11:10 PM   #4032
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E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo (380 km) has passed the discussion stage, since the government decision that the E134 will be the main road from East to West.

Heh, all the investigation said was that there will be two main roads east-west, E134 and Rv 7/52. There's no mentioning of any motorway standard (or any road standard at all). All it says for E134 is it should be winter safe. Also, the arm to Bergen won't be investigated for now.

This is just an overall initial investigation. Further investigation has to be made, and it has to go through Stortinget which will take years.

Also, when the minister of transport Ketil Solvik-Olsen gets asked how much four lane roads there will be she answers:

" Ut i fra trafikkmengden snakker vi i hovedsak om to og tre felt. Men vi har bedt Vegvesenet å se om det er mulig med tofeltsveier med 100 kilometer i timen. Det vil kunne redusere avstandsulempen i tid betydelig. Både for Øst-Vest, men også i Nord-Norge, sier Solvik-Olsen."

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Old July 20th, 2016, 01:56 AM   #4033
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It is true the high road above 1000 m will be skipped because they cannot guarantee 100% snow-free roads all year.

Again, the arguments regarding a Haukeli motorway have been repeated tediously, so I'm only going to state that this map is not in any way an official one. We don't have blue or yellow numbered routes in Norway, and even if I for one would like to see at least regional and national road numbers, noone in any remote position of power has suggested anything of the sort. If a Haukeli-Hardanger-Bergen main Oslo-Bergen link is built, it would probably get a two-digit E number (E16) whereas the secondary Hemsedal-Lærdal-Bergen road would then become the E134 (or similar). The Haugesund arm may again become the rv 11, but since the road administration people have a thing for E routes, it will probably become an arm of the E16 or possibly retain the E134 number (thus making the Hemsedal road the E138 or something...).
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Old July 20th, 2016, 02:13 PM   #4034
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Norway need to prioritize, building is one thing but to maintain these when the oil is gone is another thing, already today roads are falling apart.
Not every island need a bridge or tunnel, drop the taxes in these areas and it's fine to remove services as well.
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Old July 20th, 2016, 02:44 PM   #4035
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Heh, all the investigation said was that there will be two main roads east-west, E134 and Rv 7/52.
Yes, there will be a secondary road between East and West, the choice is between Rv7 and Rv52, the government has decided in 2015 that E134 will be the primary road.

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Originally Posted by metasmurf View Post
There's no mentioning of any motorway standard (or any road standard at all).
Short answer: Yes and no.



Long answer. There is also not a denial that the *final* setup won’t be a motorway. Construction of long range road infrastructure in mountains is expensive business. Any government needs heavy weight arguments to approve such projects. They are responsible for the national resources and tax collectors money. Therefore the impact on society must be positive.
The trigger to construct a 4-lane motorway Bergen-Oslo comes from the leading expert on social economy of the Nordic, also citizen of Norway, Prof. Dag Bjørnland: http://www.ba.no/nyheter/ny-vei-kan-...s/1-41-7421676. His feasibility study shows that the costs for a 4-lane E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo are NOK 60 billion. That is comparable with the 57 billion costs of the new E39 motorway Stavanger-Bergen. Per km the E134 is even cheaper than the E39. The economic benefits of a 4-lane E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo are according to Bjørnland 65 billion, so we have a positive net social benefits of 5 billion. That is a main trigger for a governmental decision to approve construction of such a road infrastructure of national impact. It is not unusual to construct such a motorway in stages, first a half-profile motorway (1x2 or 2+1) and then the second carriageway to complete the 2x2 motorway with shoulders. The cost of only one carriageway are 37 billion, so an immediate motorway construction will be much cheaper.

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Also, the arm to Bergen won't be investigated for now.

Yes, indeed “for now”. The young generation feels the business need for new business when the North Sea offshore activities will be over within two decades. They will shout every year louder and louder for a fast road connection to Oslo.

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Minister of Transport, Ketil Solvik-Olsen said:

Minister of Transport, Solvik-Olsen said:
Dette er såpass store ting at Vegvesenet må gjøre mye planlegging, slik at vi kan få tatt en beslutning. Endelig beslutning vil bli tatt i Nasjonal transportplan (NTP).
http://www.aftenbladet.no/nyheter/po...o-3833852.html
So, we have to wait for the final version of the National Transport Plan in Summer 2017 what will be the government decision coming years and it is not impossible the “arm to Bergen” will be part of it.

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This is just an overall initial investigation. Further investigation has to be made, and it has to go through Stortinget which will take years.
There have been many investigations by respected consultancy companies on several sections. Why another sequence of investigations? Last concept of the National Transport Plan 2018-2029 (see concept draft February 29, 2016: http://www.ntp.dep.no/Forside/_attac...ts=154a5190910) shows many already taken decisions: tunnels near Haukeli have the highest priority. With this status it will be unlikely construction of the tunnels will takes many years from now. Business and tourism have a desperate need to have a snow-free connection East-West as soon as possible. The cry will be louder every winter. Note that that many motorway parts of Bergen-Oslo are operational or soon under construction: Bergen to Os (E39), Oslo-Drammen (E18), Interchange E18 x E134 – Drammen West and Bypass Kongsberg [highest priority in concept National Transport Plan 2018]. Approved and planned are Drammen West- Kongsberg East.

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Originally Posted by metasmurf View Post
Also, when the minister of transport Ketil Solvik-Olsen gets asked how much four lane roads there will be she answers:
" Ut i fra trafikkmengden snakker vi i hovedsak om to og tre felt. Men vi har bedt Vegvesenet å se om det er mulig med tofeltsveier med 100 kilometer i timen. Det vil kunne redusere avstandsulempen i tid betydelig. Både for Øst-Vest, men også i Nord-Norge, sier Solvik-Olsen."
Those words should be read in the context. What is the context? Prof. Dag Bjørnland envisages a four-lane highway with a speed limit of 100-110 km / h. It gives a journey time of just three and a half hours between Oslo and Bergen. The Minister of Transport is still following the requirements of Bjørnland, because he asked for quality standards for the new E134 in such a way that it will make possible a maximum speed limit of 100 km/h.

Quote:
Minister of Transport , Solvik-Olsen said:

Men vi har bedt Vegvesenet å se om det er mulig med tofeltsveier med 100 kilometer i timen.
http://www.aftenbladet.no/nyheter/po...o-3833852.html
Do you have any idea what kind of road parameters such a 100 km/h road will be? It can be no other road than a motorway. That he talked about 2-lane or 3-lane roads can only be for the time being, not as final setup. Such a road will be defacto a half-profile motorway with grade separated junctions and interchanges. That Solvik-Olsen was talking about a road with less than 4 lanes is because the current political situation in Norway with a minority government, that causes careful political statements.
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Old July 20th, 2016, 02:58 PM   #4036
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If a Haukeli-Hardanger-Bergen main Oslo-Bergen link is built, it would probably get a two-digit E number (E16) whereas the secondary Hemsedal-Lærdal-Bergen road would then become the E134 (or similar). The Haugesund arm may again become the rv 11, but since the road administration people have a thing for E routes, it will probably become an arm of the E16 or possibly retain the E134 number (thus making the Hemsedal road the E138 or something...).
Interesting suggestion. However Norway has been very conservative in the past about changing E road numbers. Even the European road registration could not persuade Norway (and Sweden) to change E6 and E18 to a higher number after a German proposal, because "the numbers were so deep rooted in Norway". Other countries followed the German proposal to change the E numbers. It will be likely the section Odda-Drammen will not be changed. It is also possible that Odda-Bergen will get a new E number, your E138?
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Old July 20th, 2016, 03:15 PM   #4037
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E-numbers are administered by UNECE, a UN organization. UNECE doesn't precisely defines routes, rather, it defines which cities these routes go through, leaving the exact routing and signage to the national road authority. I'm not sure about E16, but if it is defined from Oslo to Bergen with no intermediate points, they could switch it to E134 if they wanted to.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; July 20th, 2016 at 07:33 PM. Reason: typo
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Old July 20th, 2016, 06:56 PM   #4038
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However Norway has been very conservative in the past about changing E road numbers.
Actually, we have been quite progressive after we finally introduced the "new" E numbers. E4 and E6 are the obvious exceptions, but those were considered "mother roads" in Sweden and Norway - and those numbers were originally not used in the current numbering scheme (to be precise, E6 was supposed to remain the number in Troms and Finnmark). E134 and 136 were rv 11 and 9 respectively for some years, E39 was extended into Norway, replacing a bunch of earlier numbers, E16 was extended from Oslo to Gävle, Sweden, just a few years ago, E45 replaced rv 45 in Sweden some years earlier... The E18 retained it's number simply because it coincidentally got the same route number after the revision - it had nothing to do with Norway or Sweden...
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Old July 20th, 2016, 07:07 PM   #4039
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Do you have any idea what kind of road parameters such a 100 km/h road will be? It can be no other road than a motorway.
Of course it can. Many countries have 100 km/h or higher as the speed limit on undivided 2-lane highways. That is unlikely to happen in Norway, though, but raising the speed limit on divided rural 1+1 and 2+1 expressways from 90 to 100 km/h is not beyond reason even in this country...
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Old July 20th, 2016, 07:15 PM   #4040
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I'm not sure about E16, but if it is defined from Oslo to Bergen with no intermediate points, they could switch it to E134 if they wanted to.
Fagernes is an intermediate point, but that's a result of a political decision made in the 70s. Applying for changes along a more reasonable corridor is fairly straightforward, afaik...
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