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Old July 20th, 2016, 08:30 PM   #4041
berlinwroclaw
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Of course it can. Many countries have 100 km/h or higher as the speed limit on undivided 2-lane highways. That is unlikely to happen in Norway
True. Deadly collisions, such as here on 1x2 E134 Notodden-Kongsberg are dramatic in Norway.



Safety standards are critical in Norway. They want to be at the top 10 of Europe, if not the best.

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raising the speed limit on divided rural 1+1 and 2+1 expressways from 90 to 100 km/h is not beyond reason even in this country...
Ever been on E134 Haugesund-Odda?



You will be confronted with such a "divided rural 1+1", when you follow a tiring slow truck of 80 km/h or less. This doesn't meet the requirement of a speed of 100 km/h and also 2+1 roads cannot meet this requirement.

The only option to meet this requirement of a 100 km/h speed and the safety standard of Norway is a motorway.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 03:12 AM   #4042
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In Sweden we have roads with a limit of 100km/h like this one...

E45, google maps
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Old July 21st, 2016, 11:28 AM   #4043
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They used to have 110 even.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 05:05 PM   #4044
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
The Haugesund arm may again become the rv 11, but since the road administration people have a thing for E routes, it will probably become an arm of the E16 or possibly retain the E134 number (thus making the Hemsedal road the E138 or something...).
Another suggestion may be adding the road number E138 for Bergen-Odda-Drammen West – Lierdiagonal – Rv23 - E18. The existing E134 Haugesund-Drammen South will stay in that case, the importance for the arm to Haugesund will increase after completion of E39 motorway Stavanger-Haugesund. From Odda till Drammen West there will be a double number: E134 + E138, not unusual in many countries and appropriate for this East-West corridor.

This will cover a latent desire to label Rv23/Ring4 South (Oslofjordtunnel or bridge) with an E number and puts more focus on improved export and tourist connection for Bergen.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 08:14 PM   #4045
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Sensible ideas, absolutely, but in my head the main Oslo-Bergen link will get the two-digit E number. That is if they ever make up their mind about the "MAIN" part, of course... I have a stronger and stronger feeling that regional differences will kick in once more, and we'll end up with three or possibly even four reasonably upgraded links. I'm fairly certain the Haukeli link will be prioritized, but I'm not so sure about the thing that is needed to make it the obvious Oslo-Bergen road: a new Røldal-Bergen road with several long tunnels and a new Hardangerfjord bridge. That'll be expensive...
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Old July 21st, 2016, 08:23 PM   #4046
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The only option to meet this requirement of a 100 km/h speed and the safety standard of Norway is a motorway.
It is important to differenciate between opinion and fact. The above is an opinion, and one that many knowledgeable Norwegian, Scandinavian and other road geeks clearly would disagree with. More importantly, Norwegian ministers - i.e. the people who actually have a say in this matter - also disagree. They mainly look to Sweden, where there are thousands of kms of divided 1+1/2+1 highways/expressways that work really well. Generally, the speed limits on such roads are 90, 100 or 110 km/h. We are capable of replicating this west of the border as well.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 08:39 PM   #4047
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Safety standards are critical in Norway. They want to be at the top 10 of Europe, if not the best.
Mission accomplished!

Norway had the lowest fatality rate in Europe / the world in 2015.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 11:27 PM   #4048
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
It is important to differenciate between opinion and fact. The above is an opinion, and one that many knowledgeable Norwegian, Scandinavian and other road geeks clearly would disagree with. More importantly, Norwegian ministers - i.e. the people who actually have a say in this matter - also disagree. They mainly look to Sweden
It is important to differenciate between opinion and fact. The above is an opinion, and one that many knowledgeable Norwegian, Scandinavian and other road geeks clearly would disagree with. More importantly,
Norwegian ministers - i.e. the people who actually have a say in this matter - also disagree. They mainly look to Sweden

They have the right to disagree with a feasibility study of the most respected expert on social economy of the Nordic and some consulting companies, respected by the government. Of course they may come with other solutions, based on own experiences and views. However they are also responsible for the governance in Norway in a changing economy when oil stops. The issue of improvement of road infrastructure from East to West has been discussed and will be discussed at deep level, both in the government and in the media in Norway. There are members in the Norwegian government who look at Albania.

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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
where there are thousands of kms of divided 1+1/2+1 highways/expressways that work really well. Generally, the speed limits on such roads are 90, 100 or 110 km/h. We are capable of replicating this west of the border as well.
Statistics show that the consequence will be higher casualties and more loss for economy because of slower connections. Do you think the Norwegian decision makers are willing to make such a sacrifice to safety and economy?
A bad decision maker won’t be elected next time. Norwegian newspapers are frequently showing collisions and delays on such roads, such as here on 1+1 road E134 at Vestfossen :



We live in an information society. Media also show the perspective of Norway’s future. The only solution is to construct a motorway, not in steps, because this will be more expensive but immediately. And yes: case studies worldwide show that this is a success story for greater benefits of society.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 12:02 AM   #4049
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Statistics show that the consequence will be higher casualties and more loss for economy because of slower connections.
1+1, 2+1 and 2+2 roads have casuality rates on par with motorways since both are divided highways. A 2+1 road would be more than enough to handle the AADT and wouldn't hurt the economy a bit.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 01:06 AM   #4050
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Media also show the perspective of Norway’s future. The only solution is to construct a motorway, not in steps, because this will be more expensive but immediately. And yes: case studies worldwide show that this is a success story for greater benefits of society.
Ok, I'll bite. The thing is, that if you want to discuss - with any hint of credibility - Norwegian infrastructure politics, future possibilities and likely development with, you actually need to know what you are talking about, not just post random internet images, studies and stories, repeat arguments that have been refuted by reputable commentators or make bold statements about the only way forward for Norway. Certainly, there are different opinions about how much motorways we actually need in Norway (even on this site), but that's not the main point. The main point is linked to the following: 1. Politics, national and regional. 2. Demographics. 3. Geography. 4. Actual requirements, traffic volumes.

From the top:

1. Norwegian politics are fairly complicated. First of all, we are a consensus-driven society, meaning that most vital political decisions are made with the support of the majority supporting the government, but even including the opposition. I've mentioned this before, and it's really important if you want to understand anything about Norway. Second, infrastructure isn't that important to most voters, certainly not national infrastructure. Locally, road improvements, tolls, new tunnels or bridges or public transport improvements may cause a stir, but on a national level? Not so much. Third, local politicians have a stronger influence over political decisions than in most Western democracies. Forth, we have decided that our long-term aim is to get more cargo transport from roads to rail and sea. This development is slow: our railroads require a massive upgrade, and even though there are deepwater ports in abundance along the coast, they also need to be prepared for a very different future. Fifth, even though Norway is a rich country, there are many things to spend our money on, not just roads. Sixth, environmental concerns. These include both local, national and international issues and commitments.

2. Norway is a fairly large, but sparsely populated country, but with some 40% of the population living in and around the Oslo area. There are a few other reasonably sized urban areas - Bergen, Stavanger-Sandnes, Trondheim - but they aren't that big. In addition, the rest of the population mainly live along the coast, particularly along the southern coast. This has also been stated before, but the implications are clearly not understood: whereas it does make sense to build a Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger(-Bergen), a motorway through the mountains is a far more dubious proposition. Along ~250 kms of the proposed E134 Oslo-Bergen link (between Kongsberg and Bergen), the grand population total of all municipalities within a reasonable driving distance (2 hours north or south) of the corridor is less than 50,000. In addition, for people living along the alternative corridors through Hallingdal and Valdres and in Sogn and Fjordane, such a motorway would not only be useless, but counterproductive. There is only a finite amount of money to spend on roads, even in Norway, and we do need roads not just between Oslo and Bergen. Comparing Norway to Slovakia, for instance, is beyond ridiculous for many reasons, not least because an east-west motorway there actually benefits the majority of the country. Not so here.

3. Our geography makes infrastructure construction challenging, time-consuming and expensive. This is further complicated by the fact that we need links to many different places, not just between the major cities. Quite a lot of our GDP comes from places away from the main urban centres. In addition, we are very proud of our nature, and we don't necessarily believe that motorways criscrossing our prime real estate is a sensible idea...

4. Depending on how one looks at it, we have 700-2000+ kms of road where motorways would make sense. The higher estimate would include Oslo-Stavanger-Bergen, Oslo-Trondheim-Steinkjer, Oslo-Svinesund, Oslo-Ørje plus some ring roads, links like Oslo-Gjøvik, Oslo-Hønefoss, Oslo-Kongsberg, Bergen-Voss, Trondheim-Orkanger, Kristiansund-Molde-Ålesund, and a few shorter sections around some towns and cities. However, there are many more thousands of kms of main roads that require urgent attention all over the country. Making those into 2+1, 1+1 or decent 2-lane highways is perhaps even more important than building motorways, and it doesn't come free. Avalanches and rockfalls are a constant threat on many local and regional roads, often the only viable solution is to build tunnels. Add to that all the county and local roads that are in dire straits with for instance brigdes which must be replaced and pavement repaired or completely redone, one sees a far more complex situation that needs attention in order to make the country work optimally.

In short, flights of fancy aren't the Norwegian way. We know that we have to compromise to make society work. Sometimes, the compromises turn out to be mistakes - the short-term planning of the 70s, 80s and 90s is a prime example. We have been moving away from that kind of thinking for some time now, but that doesn't mean we'll start building motorways everywhere.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 10:41 AM   #4051
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 12:36 PM   #4052
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The main point is linked to the following: 1. Politics, national and regional. 2. Demographics. 3. Geography. 4. Actual requirements, traffic volumes.
Did you read my previous post this week? You did not reply to my main arguments of an earlier post, e.g. the social economic case study of Bjørnland, see http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4035. When you are interested in a serious discussion, please reply with to his earlier post.

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Making those into 2+1, 1+1 or decent 2-lane highways is perhaps even more important than building motorways, and it doesn't come free.
Statistics show that motorways reduce fatality numbers more than any other road and allow faster and more reliable traffic. Motorways have lower levels of injury per vehicle km than other roads:

Motorways: 1.9 deaths in billion travel km
Non-motorways: 6.6 deaths in billion travel km
http://www.bast.de/EN/Publications/M...ublicationFile

Motorways are more than 3,5 better in safety than 2-lane or turbo 2-lane roads.
To compare with Sweden doesn’t work here. Sweden has very wide 2-lane main roads. It has been a best practice to drive on the shoulders to let others pass. Not much budget was needed to convert into 2+1 roads. In Norway the roads are narrow and sinous. Therefore you need to build a new road, with only few exceptions. For a 2+1 road you need 14.5 m (H5), while a 2x2 motorway needs 20 m (H8). Only a difference of 5.5 m. This was the reason E39 Stavanger-Lyngdal will be built as motorway with a predicted AADT of only 6000-8000. E134 Bergen-Oslo has a predicted AADT of more than 8000.

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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Sometimes, the compromises turn out to be mistakes - the short-term planning of the 70s, 80s and 90s is a prime example. We have been moving away from that kind of thinking for some time now, but that doesn't mean we'll start building motorways everywhere.
Bergen – Oslo is not only relevant for Oslo and Bergen, but the new connection via Haukeli serves the 3 most important regions in western Norway and finally facilitates Bergen with more direct access to the south-east. Norway needs better infrastructure between Bergen and Oslo via E134 Haukeli, the shortest route. Today it is also the busiest connection. For all people of Rogaland and Hordaland, this new E134 will be the favorite route to Oslo with more than 1 million people. Is that important or not?
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 02:34 PM   #4053
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To compare with Sweden doesn’t work here. Sweden has very wide 2-lane main roads. It has been a best practice to drive on the shoulders to let others pass. Not much budget was needed to convert into 2+1 roads. In Norway the roads are narrow and sinous. Therefore you need to build a new road, with only few exceptions. For a 2+1 road you need 14.5 m (H5), while a 2x2 motorway needs 20 m (H8). Only a difference of 5.5 m. This was the reason E39 Stavanger-Lyngdal will be built as motorway with a predicted AADT of only 6000-8000. E134 Bergen-Oslo has a predicted AADT of more than 8000.

Bergen – Oslo is not only relevant for Oslo and Bergen, but the new connection via Haukeli serves the 3 most important regions in western Norway and finally facilitates Bergen with more direct access to the south-east. Norway needs better infrastructure between Bergen and Oslo via E134 Haukeli, the shortest route. Today it is also the busiest connection. For all people of Rogaland and Hordaland, this new E134 will be the favorite route to Oslo with more than 1 million people.
You know, what really ticks people off, is the fact that you pretend to know and understand more about Norway (and Scandinavia) than road-interested people who actually live here and have done so for decades. Please stop.

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Is that important or not?
Really, no, it's not particularly important: a Haukeli motorway is actually unimportant enough to never happen...
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 04:52 PM   #4054
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It's easy to draw fancy motorway plans on a map when you don't have to take anything else into consideration but your own agenda.

However, in the real world, where road funds are finite, investigations need to be made where consideration to other infrastructure, land use, the environment, geology and dozens of other parameters need to be made.

Just as an example, the investigation for a 2+1 stretch on E4 Between Hudiksvall and Sundsvall had to be scrapped, because the proposed stretch threatened the security of a water catchment of a village along the road, thus a new investigation has been started. This just shows you how local conditions can affect building plans.

Another example was when a new railway was constructed just south of the town where I live. Because of concerns to bird life, 105 million SEK had to be spent on compensating measures after pressure from ornithologists. Environmentalist bullshit or not, this is the kind of compromises you sometimes have to make when a lot of different interests conflict with each other in a democratic society.

When it comes to priorities, a report from 2011 by Statens Vegvesen shows that 1 666 km of the national road network (E-roads and Riksveier) lacks yellow divider line with road width often under 6m wide where basic accessibility is a concern.

Also, there are several congested roads near cities people need to drive on in order to get to their jobs, often regular two lane roads. One example being E6 south of Trondheim with an AADT of 30 000 where a motorway has been needed for decades only started construction recently. With this is mind, it's easy to see that highest driving comfort for a few thousand trucks and cars along E134 will be at the bottom of the pile of sensible priorities.

Norway isn't Sim City or the U.S in the 1950's with an interstate plan where you can build roads wherever not giving a shit about anything or anyone else.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 10:19 PM   #4055
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we have 700-2000+ kms of road where motorways would make sense. The higher estimate would include Oslo-Stavanger-Bergen, Oslo-Trondheim-Steinkjer, Oslo-Svinesund, Oslo-Ørje plus some ring roads
About investing in infrastructure for decades ahead, why not ask young people in Norway who are not retired when oil resources are over within a few decades?
Present generation from agricultural background is used to think in local issues, not in the perspective of a global society where export connections are critical. A reliable highspeed road Stavanger/Bergen < E134 > Oslo/Svinesund is an essential instrument to facilitate such connections to prevent economic weakness for the younger generation.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 10:23 PM   #4056
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Progress construction motorway E18 Oslo-Kristiansand

An overview of the construction of the missing motorway links on the E18 Oslo-Kristiansand.

1. E18 Langangen-Rugtvedt (17 km)



It is expected to start construction in 2017 and to complete this section in 2020. The existing Grenland Bridge will only be used for northbound traffic.

A new bridge for southbound traffic will be constructed.



2. E18 Rugtvedt-Dørdal (17 km)

According to Transport Minister Ketil Solvik-Olsen it is the planning to complete this section in 2020.
Two wild crossings will be added to the motorway.

Costs of this motorway upgrade are 4,46 billion.

Rugtved junction where the new 4-lane motorway will start



3. E18 Tvedestrand-Arendal (23 km)



Start of construction is expected in spring 2017, according to schedule it will be completed in 2019.
Construction works culvert and portal Trælfjell tunnel



Speed limit on all new E18 motorway sections will be 110 km/h.

The new sections will connect Kristiansand with Oslo and the rest of Europe by motorway in 2020.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 11:59 PM   #4057
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The easiest way from Kristiansand to the continental motorway network will still be by ferry, though.
http://www.fergetildanmark.no/

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Present generation from agricultural background is used to think in local issues, not in the perspective of a global society where export connections are critical. A reliable highspeed road Stavanger/Bergen < E134 > Oslo/Svinesund is an essential instrument to facilitate such connections to prevent economic weakness for the younger generation.
Not much new under the sun (?) here I can see. Perhaps E134 could be isolated in a thread of its own?

Will not the ferries from Stavanger and Kristiansand be be more important for export also from Hordaland if E39 become ferry free? Just asking....
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Old July 23rd, 2016, 12:01 AM   #4058
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The new sections will connect Kristiansand with Oslo and the rest of Europe by motorway in 2020.
Funny that you would say that, i was very surpriced when my extended family from Belgium chose to go to Røldal via the bridges - actually they added 400km of driving to avoid a 2,5 hours ferry.
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Old July 23rd, 2016, 12:07 AM   #4059
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The Hirtshals - Kristiansand ferry is quite expensive on popular weekends, for example a one-way ticket for tomorrow is € 265 for a car and 4 persons and the ferry ride is too short to avoid an overnight stay when coming from the Benelux.
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Old July 23rd, 2016, 12:10 AM   #4060
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True, but the bridges are not free - and this route adds more tolls in Norway (possibly rushour Göteborg) aswell, on top of that fuel+wear/tear for 400km * 0.5 eur = you didn't save much.
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