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Old August 24th, 2016, 11:51 AM   #4241
MattiG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In a somewhat similar scenario, Scandlines want to compete with the Femern Belt Tunnel between Denmark and Germany once it is completed.
No, this is not a similar scenario. The background of the ferry scenario is that the road access from the Forsand area to Sandnes and Stavanger will be longer and more expensive after the Ryfast is complete. The planned ferry connection would keep the existing Oanes-Lauvvik ferry route which is located 20+ kilometers SW from the Ryfast. Thus, it is not a question of direct competition, because the route is significantly different.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 12:18 PM   #4242
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Okay, I thought it was about the ferry to Tau.

But the Forsand area is sparsely populated. There are only 1,200 people in the kommune, and for traffic to Stavanger, the Ryfylke Tunnel is likely faster than using the ferry and then drive via Sandnes to Stavanger, right? So the ferry would only serve Forsand - Sandnes and points south.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 12:57 PM   #4243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Okay, I thought it was about the ferry to Tau.

But the Forsand area is sparsely populated. There are only 1,200 people in the kommune, and for traffic to Stavanger, the Ryfylke Tunnel is likely faster than using the ferry and then drive via Sandnes to Stavanger, right? So the ferry would only serve Forsand - Sandnes and points south.
The question is not about time only but money, too. The current ferry price without discounts is NOK 73 (passenger car and driver) while the speculated toll of Ryfast will be around 250-300. Longer time and quadruple cost is a difficult business case

Of course, there will most probably be no business case to keep the current interval of 30 minutes and all-day traffic. This is known to the people in Forsand area, I believe.

If the private ferry becomes true, the situation will be similar to today: There are two options: the traditional ferry over Rv13 and fast ferry from Tau. The choice depends on where you are going and how much you can spend time.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 01:13 PM   #4244
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It's not just about the 1200 people in Forsand kommune. It will be an attractive connection to the Sandnes/lower Stavanger area for parts of Strands kommune including Jørpeland as the ferry only takes 10 minutes and will be more than twice as cheap as Ryfast. The route has an AADT of 1495 in 2014, which is more than some ferry crossings on E39.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:35 PM   #4245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The question is not about time only but money, too. The current ferry price without discounts is NOK 73 (passenger car and driver) while the speculated toll of Ryfast will be around 250-300. Longer time and quadruple cost is a difficult business case
Similar considerations as you did are now under study for Hordfast, part of E39 motorway Haugesund-Bergen. Hordaland County must give a loan guarantee for the giant 43 billion project Hordfast, and they have to be responsible for 30 billion in loans. They know that the toll costs will be very high for drivers, while a private ferry will be annoying, but will save much money for drivers. Making the toll low to adapt to private ferry will be bad for county budget...

It is therefore an incredible risk for Hordaland to approve the Hordfast project. https://www.nrk.no/hordaland/vil-ikk...ast-1.13103376
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Old August 24th, 2016, 03:08 PM   #4246
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When Ryfast is completed, the county will end their financial support for the Lauvik-Oanes ferry. Arguing based on the premiss of a ticket price at 73 NOK is false.

Even if the crossing takes 10 minutes, you need to account for the time it takes to drive from Jørpeland to Vatne, and waiting time at the quay.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 06:35 PM   #4247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stafangr View Post
When Ryfast is completed, the county will end their financial support for the Lauvik-Oanes ferry. Arguing based on the premiss of a ticket price at 73 NOK is false.

Even if the crossing takes 10 minutes, you need to account for the time it takes to drive from Jørpeland to Vatne, and waiting time at the quay.
Perhaps we could guess that if the local administration wants to have a ferry there, it is ready to pay some level of subsidies?

Still, the key thing is not the ferry itself. The key thing is that if someone wants to set up a private ferry connection in Norway, it seems to need a permission from the ivory tower in Oslo.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:17 PM   #4248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Perhaps we could guess that if the local administration wants to have a ferry there, it is ready to pay some level of subsidies?

Still, the key thing is not the ferry itself. The key thing is that if someone wants to set up a private ferry connection in Norway, it seems to need a permission from the ivory tower in Oslo.
I haven't looked into it, and I don't have time for it at the moment, but I would ask if:

1) Does the municipalities have the right to contribute or is it the county municipality's prerogative?

2) Would financial support by municipality need to be approved by the county or the State department?

3) Would it comply with EU law on state aid?
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:19 PM   #4249
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Norway is not in eu...
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:22 PM   #4250
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Quote:
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Norway is not in eu...
We are in the EEA, and Norway must comply with most/a lot of EU law, including EU state aid law.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 01:23 PM   #4251
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Does state aid laws also apply to transportation infrastructure?
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Old August 25th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #4252
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In any case the municipality would just have to put out a tender, something it should do anyway.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 03:10 PM   #4253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stafangr View Post
I haven't looked into it, and I don't have time for it at the moment, but I would ask if:

1) Does the municipalities have the right to contribute or is it the county municipality's prerogative?

2) Would financial support by municipality need to be approved by the county or the State department?

3) Would it comply with EU law on state aid?
EU does not forbid municipalities from entering business, nor buying services from private businesses as far as the sourcing laws are followed. I believe the key factor is the Norwegian legislation.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 03:22 PM   #4254
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Hjelle

Tunnels are great to improve traffic flow, but they are also detrimental to the experience of Norway.

For example, riksvei 15 goes through the Hjelle Tunnel. The old route is bypassed. But if you follow the main road, you'll miss scenery like this.


Hjelle, Norway by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old August 25th, 2016, 05:48 PM   #4255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stafangr View Post
I haven't looked into it, and I don't have time for it at the moment, but I would ask if:

1) Does the municipalities have the right to contribute or is it the county municipality's prerogative?

2) Would financial support by municipality need to be approved by the county or the State department?

3) Would it comply with EU law on state aid?
Rules or no rules, from my experience municipalities can always find ways to gain private companies. They'll just put their solicitors to find loopholes or arrangements so it holds up legally. If there's a will there's a way.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 06:17 PM   #4256
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Progress Expressway construction E18 Swedish border



The improvements of E18 from Østfold to the Swedish border include a grade separated 1+1 road with 2+1 sections and space reservations for 4-lane motorway. This leads to safer traffic and the E18 through the county gets a better and more equal standard. The route is about 6.4 km long, with a width of 12.5 meters and a speed limit of 90 km/h. Through Winton center, the speed being reduced to 70 km/h. Photos with the status of the construction in July 2016.

2+1 section





Kjølen bridge with junction



Bridge in Winston





Sletta bridge



Construction site at the Swedish border



The design of this new E18 had been done by NPRA under the former government. It may give a good impression about the design of main roads with a too low AADT to justify a motorway.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 10:22 PM   #4257
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Some impressions from the Fv53

Norway - Fylkesveg 53 (Fv53) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Fylkesveg 53 (Fv53) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Fylkesveg 53 (Fv53) by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old August 25th, 2016, 10:23 PM   #4258
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And Tindevegen

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old August 25th, 2016, 10:25 PM   #4259
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Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old August 25th, 2016, 10:26 PM   #4260
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Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway - Tindevegen by cinxxx, on Flickr
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