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Old August 25th, 2016, 11:05 PM   #4261
Heico-M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Tunnels are great to improve traffic flow, but they are also detrimental to the experience of Norway.

For example, riksvei 15 goes through the Hjelle Tunnel. The old route is bypassed. But if you follow the main road, you'll miss scenery like this.


Hjelle, Norway by European Roads, on Flickr
Absolutely my point! In the case of Hjelle, the positive thing is that the old road will not be abandoned because it serves the village of Hjelle. But i must admit, that me too, I took the tunnel, just a few weeks ago. It takes some planning to find these roads.

Tourism offices can do a job to help tourists at finding these roads One example which I found: on E16 near Borgund the old route is actually signposted! More of that please!
https://www.google.de/maps/@61.05163...2!8i6656?hl=de
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Old August 25th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #4262
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There are more and more private toll roads that only accept credit cards. This one is great because it informs you in time.
Other toll roads wanted me to put the exact amount in cash into an envelope. On another one they had a machine at least, but which accepted only coins. So wherever you go, be prepared.
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Old August 26th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #4263
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Don't want to spam this thread

From here you can see pictures from Fv55 (Sognefjellsvegen):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/271083...7669603706373/
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Old August 26th, 2016, 09:20 PM   #4264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
There are more and more private toll roads that only accept credit cards. This one is great because it informs you in time.
Other toll roads wanted me to put the exact amount in cash into an envelope. On another one they had a machine at least, but which accepted only coins. So wherever you go, be prepared.
According to Norwegian law you have the right to pay in cash for any service or commodity, although the banks currently are pushing to change this. Hence, in principle "credit card only" is illegal if there are no other way of paying, eg advance or post payment directly to the owner of the road. As in any law there could be some loopholes, of course. For most people, the completely legal "Cash only" is a far bigger problem nowadays, however.
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Old August 26th, 2016, 10:45 PM   #4265
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The hotel where we stayed in Tromso, they only accepted card payments.
You couldn't even buy a soda by cash...
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Old August 27th, 2016, 10:28 AM   #4266
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Tourism offices can do a job to help tourists at finding these roads
Norway has an official network of 18 authorised tourist routes. The Storting and the Government commissioned NPRA to select National Tourist Routes to improve Norway’s position as tourist country and to stimulate local business activities. Here are the 18 routes from North to South:

Varanger, Havøysund, Senja, Andøya, Lofoten, Helgelandskysten, Atlanterhavsvegen, Geiranger – Trollstigen, Gamle Strynefjellsvegen, Rondane, Sognefjellet, Valdresflye, Gaularfjellet, Aurlandsfjellet, Hardanger, Hardangervidda, Ryfylke and Jæren.

My favorites are:

1. Geiranger – Trollstigen, Fv 63

You can’t find a fjord more beautiful anywhere else in the world. It is at UNESCO’s celebrated World Heritage List.



To enjoy the full beauty, you need to make a boat trip. Otherwise looking at the fjord is like looking at a glass of beer, without drinking



2. Gamle Strynefjellsvegene, Fv 258





3. Aurlandsfjellet, the old E16 road.







4. Gaularfjellet, Fv 13





The uniqueness of these routes lies in the spectacular architecture found at viewpoints, places of interest and great scenery. Worth to visit and to enjoy the awesome nature.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 06:44 PM   #4267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
According to Norwegian law you have the right to pay in cash for any service or commodity, although the banks currently are pushing to change this. Hence, in principle "credit card only" is illegal if there are no other way of paying, eg advance or post payment directly to the owner of the road. As in any law there could be some loopholes, of course. For most people, the completely legal "Cash only" is a far bigger problem nowadays, however.
Well, illegal or not, it was there! Namely at Aursjøvegen and Mardalsvegen.

Believe me, many Germans have a problem with card payment because it leaves data. Ridiculous, sure, but it's real. They are afraid of being traced by whoever - state, companies, illuminati ... you name it. Quite the contrary to the Scandinavian pragmatism (even 5kr. toilet fees can be paid with credit cards )
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Old August 28th, 2016, 11:05 AM   #4268
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But mobile phones are OK?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 01:22 PM   #4269
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But mobile phones are OK?
Indeed, I dismiss anyone's concerns about being tracked by dashcams, video cameras on roads, or bank card uses, while still carrying a mobile phone with them, as misguided or outright hysterical-paranoid. Nothing tracks a person more than the 'digital footprints' of his or her cell phone. If it is a smartphone, then, the potential for tracking is much more pervasive and intense.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:53 PM   #4270
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But mobile phones are OK?
Well, actually, some are so paranoid that they don't even have a cell phone.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 09:45 PM   #4271
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Well, actually, some are so paranoid that they don't even have a cell phone.
I'm assuming they also turn it off if they're not using it. After all, the privacy issues with GSM and similar technologies have been known for a while so why would they not know about it?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 10:02 PM   #4272
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
But mobile phones are OK?
There are several layers of risk...

In fact, the location of an idle phone is not tracked accurately. It depends on the operator how often the network pages the phone to get to know its location down to the cell. Usually, the interval of periodic location updates is hours. When the phone moves from a routing area to another, its location is tracked. Again, the size of an routing area is subject to the planning by the operator. It may consist of thousands of cells.

If the phone turns active (call, SMS, browsing, email sync, etc), its location is known down to a cell. In cities, the location accuracy may be a some hundreds of meters, and in rural areas tens of kilometers. Only the operator knows to location, unless it gives the information to a 3rd party.

But if using a smartphone with location services on and available to zillions of smelly applications, the case is totally different. Then the phone is hyperactive all the time, and its location is most probably known by many lurkers in addition to the operator.

Thus, the risk is manageable to some degree. But there is a trade-off between privacy and usefulness.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 05:20 PM   #4273
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
But mobile phones are OK?
It is one of the secrets in society that mobile phones can still be tracked if the battery is installed.

In other words: if a phone is "switched off" it is in fact in a sleep or standby mode. The button wakes it up from a state that wasn't actually off.
The phone terminates the main operating system, running programs, powers down the screen and the radio systems are turned off. However, the processor is still running a lower level system and is able to allow tracking software to turn the radio systems back on to do live tracking.


The only absolute guarantee is to delete the battery from the smartphone.
Only in that case you are sure you cannot be followed
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Old August 29th, 2016, 08:21 PM   #4274
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Secret, nah. We all know that truth from Kiefer Sutherland / 24 ;-)
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Old August 29th, 2016, 08:26 PM   #4275
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To slide even farther off topic: AFAIK, the GSM network will continuously send signals as the phone moves in and out of the different cell towers coverage, and it will also send and receive "ping" signals to let the network know that it's still there. So with access to these logs, one could pinpoint the location of a phone (IMSI), especially (and somewhat accurate) in an area with many cell towers.

This refers to what you can figure out from a "dumb" phone, modern smartphones has much more sophisticated connections/applications.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #4276
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Some more pictures from me

(Rv15) - Fossbergom to Geiranger

Norway (Rv15) - Fossbergom to Geiranger by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway (Rv15) - Fossbergom to Geiranger by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway (Rv15) - Fossbergom to Geiranger by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:01 PM   #4277
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(Fv63) - Geiranger road

Norway (Fv63) - Geiranger road by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway (Fv63) - Geiranger road by cinxxx, on Flickr

Norway (Fv63) - Geiranger road by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:13 PM   #4278
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Quote:
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To slide even farther off topic: AFAIK, the GSM network will continuously send signals as the phone moves in and out of the different cell towers coverage, and it will also send and receive "ping" signals to let the network know that it's still there.
No, it does not work that way. That would create excessive control traffic. The network is not very keen on knowing where an idle phone is, or if it is powered on or not.

Basically, an idle phone is not tracked unless it switches to a new routing area. In that case, the phone is active and tells the mobile switching center "hi, I am here". In addition, the network may request a periodic location update, "a ping", but usually in intervals of hours.

When an idle phone is called, every cell in the routing area, where the phone is known to be, broadcasts a message "are you there". This is called paging. As the phone constantly listens to the broadcasts of nearby cells, it responds to the network via some of the cells.

When an idle phone wants to make a call, it selects one cell, and reports to the switching center.

The 2G/3G/4G protocol set is large, but all the technologies share the same basic logic. Of course, there is network-originated functionality to locate a phone, in i.e. emergencies. In many jurisdictions, this kind of functionality is reserved for authorities' use only.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:44 PM   #4279
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Indeed, I dismiss anyone's concerns about being tracked by dashcams, video cameras on roads, or bank card uses, while still carrying a mobile phone with them, as misguided or outright hysterical-paranoid. Nothing tracks a person more than the 'digital footprints' of his or her cell phone. If it is a smartphone, then, the potential for tracking is much more pervasive and intense.
Misuse of credit cards is not only a risk in term of privacy, but also of money. If you pay with your credit card in a non-well-protected online circuit (i.e. some shady, unknown websites, instead of reputable businesses), some hackers may access your bank account and steal your money.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:47 PM   #4280
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
There are several layers of risk...

In fact, the location of an idle phone is not tracked accurately. It depends on the operator how often the network pages the phone to get to know its location down to the cell. Usually, the interval of periodic location updates is hours. When the phone moves from a routing area to another, its location is tracked. Again, the size of an routing area is subject to the planning by the operator. It may consist of thousands of cells.

If the phone turns active (call, SMS, browsing, email sync, etc), its location is known down to a cell. In cities, the location accuracy may be a some hundreds of meters, and in rural areas tens of kilometers. Only the operator knows to location, unless it gives the information to a 3rd party.

But if using a smartphone with location services on and available to zillions of smelly applications, the case is totally different. Then the phone is hyperactive all the time, and its location is most probably known by many lurkers in addition to the operator.

Thus, the risk is manageable to some degree. But there is a trade-off between privacy and usefulness.
You may turn off your smartphone's GPS when you don't need it, you will also save battery.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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