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Old November 7th, 2008, 07:38 PM   #421
ElviS77
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Originally Posted by Dan1113 View Post
If there is one thing Norway is bad at, it's building roads and tunnels!
Actually, we're not. We're actually really good at this (and Swedish gloaters should take a closer look at the Hallandsås railway tunnel before expressing their glee...). However, we're lately - unfortunately - very good at not doing the proper geological surveys as well, partly because there are several difficult areas in which roads are built, but mostly because contractors are busy making the most of rather limited resources.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 03:40 AM   #422
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The Akershus part is very uncertain when will be built aswell, their still negotiating diferent alternatives with the locals...
Don't ever mess with the locals! Actually the municipal of Ås is seen as the main reason for delays here. Crazy SP-politicians... Though the path mostly is set, there is major opposition in AH county to building it at all. They either way will preasure to get the new railway from Ski-Oslo first eitherway. If the road get's built now, it may be as a widened dual-lane with central concrete barriers, with some new paths around urban zones.
There is little reason to belive someone in Akershus will finance anything, as it is mostly only the municipals of Indre Østfold that wants this.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 04:39 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Actually, we're not. We're actually really good at this (and Swedish gloaters should take a closer look at the Hallandsås railway tunnel before expressing their glee...). However, we're lately - unfortunately - very good at not doing the proper geological surveys as well, partly because there are several difficult areas in which roads are built, but mostly because contractors are busy making the most of rather limited resources.
Actually, most roads in Norway - both old and new - are of mediocre quality, so I agree with Dan1113 on that one.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 10:11 PM   #424
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Don’t confuse quality and standard

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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Actually, most roads in Norway - both old and new - are of mediocre quality, so I agree with Dan1113 on that one.
You shouldn’t confuse standard and quality. Norway has many old roads; many of which were built in the Golden years of road building in Norway, i.e. 1960 until 1978, back when the NPRA (SVV) got as much money as they asked for from the government. But of course those roads were built according to the standards of theirs time. In the 1980s the traffic exploded and the funding dried up (with the exception for the early 1990s under Mr. Opseth as Minister of Transport). Funding for maintenance has suffered most, and today many roads are in a state of disrepair. This has little to do with their initial quality. New roads in Norway are of a very high quality, probably among the highest in the world when one are considering materials used, ITS-systems, traffic safety, environmental standards, side areas, -but when considering road standard, especially on secondary roads, the design could have been better.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 02:21 PM   #425
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I think what ElviS77 means is that Norway is very good with digging/boring rock tunnels and in geology in general. This is certainly true, experience from huge road-, railway and not at least hydropower projects have lead to a very high level of expertice in this field among Norwegian entrepeneurs. The Lærdal tunnel, for instance, was built at an amazing price of 38 kNOK/m. This is why there are rarely any international bids for larger Norwegian tunnel boring contracts.

The expertice in geological surveys is also among the highest in the world in Norway, partly due to the offshore industry. However, geological surveys are very expensive, and in most cases the rock in Norway is of high quality. However, doing the survey on the cheap means that you sometimes, like in Steinkjer, are in for some nasty surprises.

Regarding the road intrafrastructure, I think everyone on this forum agree that it is shit in Norway. It has never been good either. True, in the "golden age", as you referr it to, quite a few rural roads were widened to a better standard than they had before. However, comparing this with what was built in other industrialized countries in the same period, for instance our close neighbors, you quickly see that what was built in Norway was substandard from the start. This is particularly true for the trunk roads, as these were mostly not built to any higher standard than a dead-end roads leading to towns of a few houses.

For more about Norwegian road history, you can perhaps start reading this article (in Norwegian)
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Old November 9th, 2008, 11:43 PM   #426
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Ok, I misread your post ElviS77, sorry. I agree there is some expertise in some niche areas like you mention, but they're only valuable in extraordinary circumstances, and it's not like tunnels elsewhere aren't of equal or better quality.

Still, the overall quality is, as 54°26′S 3°24′E says, shit. There are few places in Europe that doesn't have a better overall road quality, and that was what I was trying to say. I'm sure the people at SVV are capable of creating wonderful things if the state wasn't so stingy and anti-roads, so that remains the real problem.

As for the standards/quality argument; I see no difference. It is what is is, whatever it was meant to be from the start. Even if you do differentiate between the two, they're still shit.
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Old November 11th, 2008, 01:20 AM   #427
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Standard and quality

There are huge differences between standard and quality. Most Norwegian roads has low standard because they were built like that (lots of reasons, porkbarreling among them, Norway has build extremely many ‘bridges to nowhere’). It is possible to build a road with low standard but of high quality, as the Norwegian Motorway class B). Older roads were built with low standard and low quality, as rural highways which ends up as mud paths during early spring (luckily few of those left today). New motorways in Norway (of today) have rather high quality and high standards. But unfortunately, many high quality roads end up as roads of low quality due lacking of maintenance funding. My point is that it won’t help building better roads; if we don’t maintain them afterwards.

And btw, I know extremely well all about the sorry state of Norwegian road network and the history of it as I work for the DPR, NPRA.

A road of low quality and low standard:



High quality and low standard (one lane):


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Old November 11th, 2008, 09:46 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Ok, I misread your post ElviS77, sorry. I agree there is some expertise in some niche areas like you mention, but they're only valuable in extraordinary circumstances, and it's not like tunnels elsewhere aren't of equal or better quality.
Better or not better... Depends on how and what you evaluate, but generally speaking, we're leading the pack in terms of tunnel engineering simply because we've got loads and loads of experience. Some criticism has, however, been directed at safety equipment in Norwegian tunnels, but that is a different story – even though the criticism is warranted in quite a few cases. And: We know how to build roads, railroads, bridges etc as well, experience and competence is not the problem there either.

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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Still, the overall quality is, as 54°26′S 3°24′E says, shit. There are few places in Europe that doesn't have a better overall road quality, and that was what I was trying to say. I'm sure the people at SVV are capable of creating wonderful things if the state wasn't so stingy and anti-roads, so that remains the real problem.
Well, the worst problem isn't even an anti-road stance, the average road infrastructure spendings the past 50 years have matched those of Denmark and Sweden. The real issue is a combination of regionalism, lack of planning for the future and a bad network to begin with. We’re seeing a couple of fine examples of the first problem as we speak: local politicians in one of three local councils might very well end up delaying a desperately needed new section of the E39 for years. Why? Because they want a long tunnel instead of the Vegvesen proposed alignment (the other local councils have accepted the alignment…). The E6 north of Minnesund may very well face a similar delay (though local opposition is more uniform there). Nonetheless, both are examples of late-stage delay procedures that simply would not happen in other countries. That is not to say that our politicians probably should have realised that building roads in Norway is more expensive and, thus, fund better, but it is a far more complex issue than just "incompetent Norwegian idiots who don't fund their roads"...

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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
As for the standards/quality argument; I see no difference. It is what is is, whatever it was meant to be from the start. Even if you do differentiate between the two, they're still shit.
The quality of our network is a result of politics and history, not engineering capabilities. We can and we do. You may for instance consider spectacular bridges and our - albeit few - new motorways. Some of the worst infrastructure construction blunders of late have happened in Sweden – the Hallandsås railway tunnel has been in construction for more than a decade, but is still years away from completion due to far worse geology than predicted. Another example is the collapse of a section of E6 under construction north of Uddevalla a couple of years ago. Does this mean that the Swedes are incompetent engineers who “meant it to be from the start”? I don’t think so, but accidents, lapses of judgement and blunders do occur.
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Old November 11th, 2008, 09:59 PM   #429
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My point is that it won’t help building better roads; if we don’t maintain them afterwards.
Road maintainence is a major concern in many countries (quite a bit of the US interstate network is in a sorry state, for instance), but in a country like ours, where weather is a massive issue, it becomes even more important. Rain and frost do serious damage and worsen damage done by traffic. On top of this, the fact that far too many roads "built" in the past 30-40-50-60-70 years are mere improvements of older local roads, the situation gets even worse: lack of proper drainage, exposure to rock falls, avalanches and flash floods... Pretty soon there isn't much asphalt left. And that's before even touching the fact that these roads often are dangerously incapable of dealing with modern-day traffic loads.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 06:16 PM   #430
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Huge motorway project opens next week. The E6 will then be motorway all the way trhough the county of Østfold. This is about 60 kms. This means that the E6 will have motorway-standards all the way from Oslo to the Swedish border.(excluding a short section at Vinterbro, where a tunnel will open next fall).






As you can see, not all of the road is finished, but it will get ready next week, after 7 years of construction.

Source: http://www.f-b.no/article/20081118/NYHET/366931425#
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 07:15 PM   #431
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^ Why so long?
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 08:10 PM   #432
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60 kms is quite a long section on difficult terrain. And one big problem and your project is delayed for a year or two. I'm not surprised it took 7 years.
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Old November 24th, 2008, 12:35 AM   #433
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I will also guess that the financing and total construction capacity are crucial. Btw, is Eidet-tunnelen really going to have 5-lanes? What a complete waste that it they built that tunnel with three lanes... Norwegian long-term planing.
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Old November 24th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #434
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^ Yep it's 3 lanes southbound, for a few kms including Eidet-tunnel. For Norway this is pretty fast, thinking of how long E18 trough Vestfold, E18 trough Østfold, E16 in Akershus will take to complete.... Another remark is that on this particular E6, they built long bridge-crossings in the 70s that where easy to addapt to a 4 lane road (Can be easily seen Mosseporten - Råde), while the bridges from the 90s they built short bridges that required a demolition or large rebuilding (Sarpsborg - Halden).... ;P

71 people lost their lives on E6 trough Østfold in the period 1995 - 2005, no lives has been lost on the new motorway stretches.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #435
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I just made a brief calculation... If everything goes according to plan, we'll see in excess of 500 kms of motorway by 2015. That is including E6 Dal-Kolomoen, E18 in Vestfold and Østfold, bits and pieces in the Bergen and Trondheim areas and the first part of E16 in Sandvika, but not including 4-lane dual lane carriageways like Ring 3 in Oslo or the new rv 2. It is by no means enough, but still a considerable improvement over the current state of affairs. I'll get back to a few points about possible strategies and obvious mistakes in construction or planning later this weekend. I might even return with a further road guide or two. Next in line: the remaining E routes, rvs 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 13 and 17. The latter first, I guess, since it's a tourist road extraordinnare.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 11:58 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
I just made a brief calculation... If everything goes according to plan, we'll see in excess of 500 kms of motorway by 2015. That is including E6 Dal-Kolomoen, E18 in Vestfold and Østfold, bits and pieces in the Bergen and Trondheim areas and the first part of E16 in Sandvika, but not including 4-lane dual lane carriageways like Ring 3 in Oslo or the new rv 2. It is by no means enough, but still a considerable improvement over the current state of affairs. I'll get back to a few points about possible strategies and obvious mistakes in construction or planning later this weekend. I might even return with a further road guide or two. Next in line: the remaining E routes, rvs 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 13 and 17. The latter first, I guess, since it's a tourist road extraordinnare.
Is it not more? Vegvesnet claimed 505,5 km including dual carriageways (I assume) before 2009 is over. And we don't have that much dual carriageways. Kløfta - Nybakk, Ring 3, parts of E18 in Østfold (Askim to Mysen?). What gives?

http://www.tu.no/bygg/article179603.ece

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Old November 29th, 2008, 01:11 PM   #437
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Yes, they've opened a lot of new roads the last 6 years you know, included in this number is E18/E18 Østfold, E16 Bærum, E18 Agder, Roads around Bergen and Stavanger, E18 Vestfold, Rv2, Tønsberg ring, Tromsø tunnel, E6 Romerike, E6 Trøndelag etc. What roads will be completed before 2015? Finished E18 Vestfold, E6 Hamar, small stretches in the cities, it seems like it's slowing down and maybe more will be spent on paying down Ops projects and other loan-projects and maintenance on existing stuff.

Something i'm wondering about when Norway builds 4 lane roads, they are always with roadlights, while in most countries these roads don't have them. It strikes me as a bit useless to have these on such good quality roads with few accidents... Any toughts about that?
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Old November 29th, 2008, 05:24 PM   #438
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Is it not more? Vegvesnet claimed 505,5 km including dual carriageways (I assume) before 2009 is over. And we don't have that much dual carriageways. Kløfta - Nybakk, Ring 3, parts of E18 in Østfold (Askim to Mysen?). What gives?

http://www.tu.no/bygg/article179603.ece
That's a bold claim, but it might be correct, if one includes everything. Let's see what dual-lane carriageways we do have... Rv 2. In Oslo there's Ring 3, rv 163, rv 4, rv 190, parts of E18 and E6. The E18 in and around Kristiansand, parts of the E39, E16 and rv 555 in and around Bergen, the E6 south of and around Trondheim (the E18 in Østfold is a motorway, btw) plus some shorter sections in and around urban areas (rv 44, rv 300, E8 Tromsø, for instance). Add to that the excisting 300 kms of motorway and the 60+ kms due to open next year, you're probably there.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 05:35 PM   #439
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Yes, they've opened a lot of new roads the last 6 years you know, included in this number is E18/E18 Østfold, E16 Bærum, E18 Agder, Roads around Bergen and Stavanger, E18 Vestfold, Rv2, Tønsberg ring, Tromsø tunnel, E6 Romerike, E6 Trøndelag etc. What roads will be completed before 2015? Finished E18 Vestfold, E6 Hamar, small stretches in the cities, it seems like it's slowing down and maybe more will be spent on paying down Ops projects and other loan-projects and maintenance on existing stuff.

Something i'm wondering about when Norway builds 4 lane roads, they are always with roadlights, while in most countries these roads don't have them. It strikes me as a bit useless to have these on such good quality roads with few accidents... Any toughts about that?
We're in for some interesting years, because even if we don't get massive PPP schemes or radically increased public fundings for road construction (which I don't believe will happen), I'm cautiously optimistic. Recessions, generally, aren't bad for infrastructure investment, and I seriously believe that we'll see a real increase in actual construction. As I said earlier, I'll comment a bit more later. When it comes to our brightly lit motorways, I think they're a good idea, particularly in the wintertime.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 08:28 PM   #440
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As Norway is such a dark country, it is right to have road lights. Light snow blowing around can also make it difficult to see the road. Though all highways are fenced in, there is also the risc of animals on the road. I think highway lighting is great.
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