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Old October 1st, 2016, 11:41 AM   #4401
berlinwroclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
There are 30 departures from Oslo to Trondheim every day. On average, there's a plane going every 25 mins or so.
Outside rush hours you have to wait much longer. In the afternoon up to 3 hours. Not all flights are low budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
Both getting to OSL and taking the plane is super easy and relaxing;
Are you sure? What is so super easy with waiting for the flight, security control, including inspecting intimate parts?
What is so relaxing, while sitting in a always-too-narrow seat where all the time others have to pass your seat going to the toilet? Yes, even when you are flying in business class it is to narrow, you have no privacy like in the car and you cannot take the bags you want, you have to look to video's you don't want and all the time they start the flight with the message that things may go wrong and you have to be prepared for that! Are you really sure flying is so easy? Don't forget the annoying going to the airport on departure and arrival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
driving is a night mare in comparison (seriously watching out for moose in the darkness..).
You should be for 1 month in another country and then take a 480 km motorway in the dark. Even done driving on a long distance motorway of 480 km in the dark? It is a matter of experience, after 2 times you get used to it.
It is really easy and safe with 130 km/h. You only have to follow the red lights of the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
The money issue is actually in favour of air travel, since many young people living in Oslo don't need to own a car. Air fares are nothing compared to the costs of car ownership.
When I want to go from Oslo to Trondheim on Monday October 3, I have to pay NOK 2,459 (274 euro). You only have reduction when the airline company decides you can fly.
An average car needs on a motorway Trondheim-Oslo of 480 km just 15 liter that is only NOK 480 (53 euro). The difference becomes dramatic when you travel with others, because the costs for the car trip will be almost the same, while you pay the full price for a flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
"Normal" norwegians wouldn't consider driving to central or southern europe for instance, or driving to northern norway. Aint really got anything to do with road quality.
Are you sure? A motorway is much safer, faster and easier than the Rv3 or E6 to Kolomoen. The problem you and your friends take the plane is that there is no motorway Kolomoen-Trondheim. More precise: the Trondheim lobby (and north of Trondheim) is almost neglectible compared to other regions like the Westcoast for motorway to Oslo. You can check out the relation Oslo-Kristiansand. Air traffic will be a loser soon as the motorway will be completed.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 12:18 PM   #4402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
The norwegians that are hooked onto air travel won't change and train is a more realistic alternative in the future imo (since it's more comfortable).

Perhaps you missed the discussion about air traffic or driving a motorway this summer.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=3753



Here a short summary. For many people, the huge domestic air traffic in Norway is senseless and unsustainable. When there are motorways Trondheim-Oslo and Bergen-Oslo, much of the air traffic will be transferred to motorways, with travelling time below 4 hours both Trondheim-Oslo and Bergen-Oslo .
People who fly such short distances should feel responsibility for the air pollution. Electric cars will dominate Norway next decade and help to establish true sustainability.

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Old October 1st, 2016, 12:50 PM   #4403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Outside rush hours you have to wait much longer. In the afternoon up to 3 hours. Not all flights are low budget.
Not true at all; where do you get this from? Thin air? There are flights all day from around 07 to 2200. All flights are by either Norwegian or SAS, the price difference for economy tickets is not big.

This is monday's schedule between 14 and 19:
1405
1455
1540
1620
1620
1700
1700
1730
1740
1810
1820
1840
1900
1930

Quote:
Are you sure? What is so super easy with waiting for the flight, security control, including inspecting intimate parts?
What is so relaxing, while sitting in a always-too-narrow seat where all the time others have to pass your seat going to the toilet? Yes, even when you are flying in business class it is to narrow, you have no privacy like in the car and you cannot take the bags you want, you have to look to video's you don't want and all the time they start the flight with the message that things may go wrong and you have to be prepared for that! Are you really sure flying is so easy? Don't forget the annoying going to the airport on departure and arrival.
Yes I'm sure. The security control at OSL takes 5 mins. Flying is much safer than driving, much much safer, no comparison. Worrying about an accident because of the security demo as an argument againt flying is simply irrationality on display.

In-flight comfort is not an issue at all for short, domestic flights - it's over in a second it feels like. People generally don't have to use the toilet for instance on a flight that doesn't take an hour. Flying is pleasant. Even if total travel time is only 50% of car travel, you get to use your legs and move around more, you don't have to sit tight for as many hours, you have access to amenities, you can do other things like reading, working, shopping and so on.

Quote:
You should be for 1 month in another country and then take a 480 km motorway in the dark. Even done driving on a long distance motorway of 480 km in the dark? It is a matter of experience, after 2 times you get used to it.
It is really easy and safe with 130 km/h. You only have to follow the red lights of the other.
Obviously what is more pleasant and comfortable is subjective, but what is safer is not. And no, compared to air travel, it is not safe at all. And I'm pretty sure a lot of people find it far more comfortable to either take the train or take the plane, where they can relax and do other things.

Quote:
When I want to go from Oslo to Trondheim on Monday October 3, I have to pay NOK 2,459 (274 euro). You only have reduction when the airline company decides you can fly.
An average car needs on a motorway Trondheim-Oslo of 480 km just 15 liter that is only NOK 480 (53 euro). The difference becomes dramatic when you travel with others, because the costs for the car trip will be almost the same, while you pay the full price for a flight.
Ah, the scientifically accurate method of finding random airline ticket to use as a general basis for comparison. If you read the study I linked to,you'll find that they did this comparison and their conclusion was completely different.

I went to norwegian.com and found most tickets were available at prices around 1000 NOK, some (4 out of 14) were 1400-1500: http://www.norwegian.no/booking/fly/...NOK&TripType=2

Quote:
The problem you and your friends take the plane is that there is no motorway Kolomoen-Trondheim.
No it's not. The car fans can tell themselves this as much as they want,but norwegians will continue to fly between Oslo and Trondheim regardless of road quality. The only thing that will put a serious dent into the numbers, more than a couple of percentage points would be serious service upgrades to the train connections.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #4404
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At 120 km/h Trondheim - Oslo will take around 4 hours. With some shortcuts on the current alignment the time can be reduced even more. Air travel takes at least 3 hours from curb to curb (or door to door if you like) , more if you check-in luggage or one of your destinations are not centrally located. In addition there is a lot of hassle associated with air travel due to security checks, boarding, and transitions between modes of transportation.

Air travel is cheap today, but with the environmental commitments and political landscape we see now,
there is no doubt that the cost of at least domestic air travel should and will increase considerably. Road traffic will during the next decade become emission free in Norway and costs may even go down. Due to weight constraints, it is hard to see how air travel could do the same in the foreseeable future.


Today all of my work travels Oslo - Trondheim are by air, and private travels are split approximately 45/50/5 between air, car and train (I'm a family man!) . With comparable travel time between air and road travel, less hassle using a car or bus, and steeply increasing costs for air travel, it is not difficult to imagine that there could be a dramatic shift in travel preferences.

The current rail service is both slow and expensive and hence has a small share of the transportation work. A high speed railway could lead to total travel time comparable to the other alternatives, but at an incredible cost (HSR geometric requirements are much more demanding (stiffer) than for motorways) and dubious environmental impact. After HSR plans were shelved a few years back I do not see it as a realistic or even desirable alternative. Currently the train traffic account for 5 % of long distance travel (I'm on the national average at least privately! ), a number that has been stable over the last couple of decades.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 06:25 PM   #4405
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Ørnesvingen

The famous Ørnesvingen of Fylkesvei 63 near Geiranger.


Fylkesvei 63 Ørnesvingen-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

This is the view from there:

Geirangerfjord-3 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old October 1st, 2016, 11:14 PM   #4406
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Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
The car fans can tell themselves this as much as they want,but norwegians will continue to fly between Oslo and Trondheim regardless of road quality.
Do you have any idea why Bergen, Trondheim and other domestic airports are oversized, compared with similar airports in other countries? Other countries have motorways between the top 4 cities and Norway not.
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 12:09 PM   #4407
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Those who don't like driving prefere motorways i guess, here are the alternatives from Halden to Gardermoen - even with the 30-60 min expected delay on Ring3 + tolls people i've spoken too still prefere the motorway... :P

https://www.google.no/maps/dir/Garde...0935!5i2?hl=no
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 03:13 PM   #4408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Do you have any idea why Bergen, Trondheim and other domestic airports are oversized, compared with similar airports in other countries? Other countries have motorways between the top 4 cities and Norway not.
Well, there are several reasons besides road quality:
1.)Distance between main city pairs
2.)Lack of high speed rail service between main city pairs
3.)Economy, norwegians have money and travel a lot.
4.)Topography/climate

Let's stick to Oslo - Trondheim. A realistic motorway alternative could shave the travel time down to 4.5-5hrs. I hear 4hrs, but that is not realistic. 35-40% of the trips are work related. Good luck getting them to drive cars. You then only need a modest percentage of leisure travellers to fly to get a mode split comparable to what we had in 2009. It was 52% air travel then, but it might be some points higher today since air travel btw OSL and TRD has increased by 10% since that time.

So yes, a 4.5-5hrs motorway would of course change some people's choices, but not many enough to dramatically change the picture.

Got to remember that a big difference between city pairs in continental europe and Oslo-Trondheim is quality of rail service. You might get a business man to take a high speed train, but you won't get him to drive.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 09:58 AM   #4409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
Oslo - Trondheim. A realistic motorway alternative could shave the travel time down to 4.5-5hrs. I hear 4hrs, but that is not realistic.
The motorway Oslo-Trondheim will have a length of 480 km. Minister of Transport has announced a speed limit of 130 km/h can be allowed in future.
http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/Fore...9-280464b.html
Travel time of the motorway Oslo-Trondheim will be with 130 km/h 3 hours 42 minutes. Compare motorway Oslo-Trondheim with motorway E134 Oslo-Bergen of 380 km. With speed limit 130 km/h it is less than 3 hours.

Those distances and travel times can be compared with motorways between big cities of other countries. The airports of similar foreign cities are small compared with Bergen en Trondheim. Therefore, after completion motorways Oslo-Trondheim and Oslo-Bergen, Norwegian domestic air traffic will be like in other countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
It was 52% air travel then, but it might be some points higher today since air travel btw OSL and TRD has increased by 10% since that time.
Oil will be over in 2040. Now more than 66% of Norwegian export. Oil will become more and more expensive, so air traffic will become more and more expensive. Norway cannot live from fish and wood in 2040, but needs competitive export connections. Check out that every poor country desperate constructs motorways. The young generation will be the greatest supporters for motorways and unless Norway wants to be a poor country, there will be motorways Oslo-Trondheim and Oslo-Bergen in 2040.

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Old October 3rd, 2016, 01:43 PM   #4410
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
with the environmental commitments and political landscape we see now
Government is indeed aware of environmental commitments. It is a big taboo and public secret that airports are very bad for people who live within 10 km from the airport runways. The governments in all countries have made secret agreements not to publish health statistics about areas near airports. For Trondheim airport, Stjørdal (23000 inhabitants) is very close to the airport. For Gardermoen airport, Jessheim (13000 inhabitants) is within 10 km range.
Now living by airports within 10 km will have a higher chance of cancer:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ts-cancer.html or of asthma, COPD and heart problems because of exposure to carbon monoxide from planes may impact on health:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/10Octobe...ur-health.aspx
By flying, be aware you contribute to bad health to people. Norway has cheap and sustainable electric power in abundance for alternative mobility.



The only fast and sustainable mobility alternative is an electric car, since long-distance high-speed trains has been considered as too expensive. Better support the sustainable society by taking an electric car with better life expectations for all people. You will have peace with all people and peace with yourself.

Last edited by coolstuff; October 3rd, 2016 at 03:49 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 02:43 PM   #4411
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It is a big taboo and public secret that airports are very bad for people who live within 10 km from the airport runways. The governments in all countries have made secret agreements not to publish health statistics about areas near airports.
Source?

The sustainable way of living is urban and based on public transport.

Despite the EV incentives, car emissions keep increasing: http://www.tu.no/artikler/derfor-oke...50296#cxrecs_s

Not to mention that the incentives have made people buy more cars, not necessarily replaced their fossil cars. This has a largely unnoticed, but devastating emissions effect due to the very Co2-intensive EV car and battery production.

It takes 16t of Co2 to produce a Tesla Model S (source). I can fly from Oslo to Trondheim 500 times before I've reached that number (source). The reality is that I, who don't need to own a car, will never in my life get near the emissions of someone who buys cars like Tesla Model S. And the vast majority of my travelling is extremely low on emissions compared to car use, not to mention that it is far more space efficient, city friendly and people friendly.

Last edited by OnTheNorthRoad; October 3rd, 2016 at 02:51 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 03:47 PM   #4412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
Source?

The sustainable way of living is urban and based on public transport.

Despite the EV incentives, car emissions keep increasing: http://www.tu.no/artikler/derfor-oke...50296#cxrecs_s

Not to mention that the incentives have made people buy more cars, not necessarily replaced their fossil cars. This has a largely unnoticed, but devastating emissions effect due to the very Co2-intensive EV car and battery production.

It takes 16t of Co2 to produce a Tesla Model S (source). I can fly from Oslo to Trondheim 500 times before I've reached that number (source). The reality is that I, who don't need to own a car, will never in my life get near the emissions of someone who buys cars like Tesla Model S. And the vast majority of my travelling is extremely low on emissions compared to car use, not to mention that it is far more space efficient, city friendly and people friendly.
Did you read the provided sources from my previous post? FYI: The governments in all countries have made secret agreements not to publish health statistics about areas near airports. Thanks to the freedom of communication in many countries we know the facts.

About your argument that people will buy by more cars, not necessarily replaced their fossil cars: like many countries, Norway has plans to stop sales of non-emission free cars by 2025. Norway doesn’t want to give up its leader position on sustainable mobility.

Pollution impact is not only carbon, but like on my previous post much poison for people comes from kerosine and small particles from e.g. aircraft and this is well supported by respected sources. Read the following resource. Air traffic has the highest impact on environment of all mobility: http://www.davidsuzuki.org/issues/cl...limate-change/.

It may take much C02 to produce a tesla model s, but producing an aircraft and maintenance of an airport is also not emission-free. Tesla Model S is one of the biggest EV on the market, most people cannot afford such a car but they can afford much smaller and environment friendlier produced vehicles, such as Nissan Leaf or VW e-Golf. Furthermore express buses will travel between Oslo and Trondheim for fast, sustainable mobility by public transport via the motorway Oslo-Trondheim.

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Old October 3rd, 2016, 06:26 PM   #4413
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I meant source for the claim that governments are covering up health effects of local pollution from aviation.

Norway doesn't have a leading position in sustainable mobility. There is far too much sprawl and for too much car use overall for that to be a reality. Oslo is the only city where the car share is close to acceptably low (though of course still too high) with 36%.

Other cities have car shares over 50%, Stavanger over 60%.

Anyway, you could talk to norwegians all day about the proven superiority of dense living and PT when it comes to efficiency and sustainability, but it goes in through one ear and out through the other

The point is, simply, since the car enthusiasts now claim to be environmental advocates, why aren't they pushing for the superior solutions both with regards to economic efficiency, sustainability and well being?
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:20 PM   #4414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post
the proven superiority of dense living and PT when it comes to efficiency and sustainability
That's a bit of a dubious claim. High density locations often have severely unaffordable housing, no matter how many houses / apartments are built. And dense cities are much more congested, as there are far more traffic movements per km² than in lower density locations, which offsets the lower car usage per capita.

One of the longest commuting times to work in the U.S. are recorded in... Manhattan. Not to mention this 'superior dense living' is not the actual reality in Norway (and much of Europe), where most people live in a single-family houses outside of city centers. 70 percent of Norwegian households with children live in a detached house.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:49 PM   #4415
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Can you provide source on the Manhattan having longer commutes claim. It's not that I don't believe it, maybe just a little , but its also very interesting to me to see the exact times.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:53 PM   #4416
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You can check every county in the U.S. at the Quickfacts tool of the U.S. Census Bureau. Manhattan has a mean travel time to work of 30.6 minutes, which is one of the longest in the U.S., especially considering its short distances. For example sprawled-out Harris County (Houston) has a 27.7 minute travel time to work, even with the massive congestion.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:58 PM   #4417
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It's because a lot of people in Manhattan use public transport which has longer commute times. I did an essay on this but my laptop is currently in repairs otherwise I could've given you a link or 2

It should be somewhere in this list.

edit: Ah, Chris has the correct link
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 08:18 PM   #4418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheNorthRoad View Post

The point is, simply, since the car enthusiasts now claim to be environmental advocates, why aren't they pushing for the superior solutions both with regards to economic efficiency, sustainability and well being?
It is not a behavior of enthousiasm, but a solution for society. The idea to construct environment friendly motorway infrastructure did not come from car enthusiasts. In fact Norway is a country of fishermen and woodcutters and has almost no car enthusiasts The idea can from no less Prof. Dag Bjørnland, considered as the best social economist of the country: http://www.ba.no/nyheter/ny-vei-kan-...s/1-41-7421676. He came with a detail plan, good for both environment and economy for a 4-lane E134 motorway Bergen-Oslo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
The young generation will be the greatest supporters for motorways and unless Norway wants to be a poor country, there will be motorways Oslo-Trondheim and Oslo-Bergen in 2040.
It will go gradually. In the present philosophy of NPRA and government, missing parts of the motorway Oslo-Trondheim won’t unfortunately be constructed immediately as motorway. It will be grade separated expressway and step by step. But still a major improvement and another reduction of travel time. Such as a brandnew E6 expressway north of Lillehammer.



When traffic volume will be higher, upgrade to motorway will be done, as we have seen on E6 Gardermoen-Kolomoen.



Only challenge for the motorway Oslo-Trondheim is the Dovre plateau. But also this can be solved by e.g. constructing Ulsberg-Rv 3 Stugusjoen - Rv29-Rv27- E6 Ringebu- E6 Lillehammer (184 km), costs 17 billion. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4182
Yes, not much more than 17 billion is needed to complete the motorway Oslo-Trondheim outside current plans. It wil be faster and cheaper to construct than the E134 motorway Oslo-Bergen. Still, motorway Oslo-Bergen will be expected to be earlier available, because of the massive support of the westcoast, the center of Norway’s oil industry.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:20 PM   #4419
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A big transport over Haukelifjell:
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Old October 5th, 2016, 05:24 PM   #4420
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E6 Oslo - Gardermoen

Some photos of E6 from Oslo to Gardermoen.

1.

E6-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2.

E6-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3.

E6-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

E6-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5.

E6-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

6.

E6-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7.

E6-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

8.

E6-17 by European Roads, on Flickr

9.

E6-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 110 km/h.

E6-20 by European Roads, on Flickr

11.

E6-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

12.

E6-24 by European Roads, on Flickr

13.

E6-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

14.

E6-28 by European Roads, on Flickr

15.

E6-30 by European Roads, on Flickr
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