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Old October 5th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #4421
Ingenioren
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No photo of the new flyover?
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Old October 5th, 2016, 10:01 PM   #4422
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I took the photos in June, it wasn't completed back then

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Old October 7th, 2016, 03:03 AM   #4423
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Silly how E16 has been squeezed to the old green square in place of 2...

And for that matter, actually the whole E16 east of Hønefoss is silly.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 05:40 PM   #4424
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Fylkesvei 63 to Geiranger

I made a video of Fylkesvei 63 (County Road 63) to Geiranger. It's one of the top drives in Norway and Europe.

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Old October 9th, 2016, 11:34 PM   #4425
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When I drove there it was all filled with fog
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Old October 10th, 2016, 12:38 PM   #4426
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The budget for 2017 NPRA is 30.5 billion, an increase of 3.7%. The good news is:

1. Budget of NPRA is growing for several years now
2. Increase comes almost entirely to new road construction and expansion

Important new motorway projects for 2017:

1. E39 Stavanger-Haugesund: construction Boknafjordtunnel (26.5 km)
2. E16 Oslo-Hønefoss

For the rest the normal policy of local projects. Let's hope that at least the missing stretches of the expressway network with East-West and North-South corridors will be planned soon after the approval of the National Transport Plan in June 2017.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 12:55 PM   #4427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Silly how E16 has been squeezed to the old green square in place of 2...

And for that matter, actually the whole E16 east of Hønefoss is silly.
In my opinion, frankly, the E16 should be extended to Finland. Here is my proposal, inspired by Norway and Sweden:





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Old October 10th, 2016, 03:36 PM   #4428
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The budget for 2017 NPRA is 30.5 billion, an increase of 3.7%.
That's € 3.4 billion for a population of 5 million. I think the 'per capita' spending on roads in Norway is much higher than most other countries. For example in the Netherlands (pop. 17 million) the budget is only € 2.4 billion. True, that's for only 2,500 km of roads, but even provincial road spending is not much more than € 1 billion combined (including maintenance, construction & operations).
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Old October 10th, 2016, 05:16 PM   #4429
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Quote:
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That's € 3.4 billion for a population of 5 million. I think the 'per capita' spending on roads in Norway is much higher than most other countries. For example in the Netherlands (pop. 17 million) the budget is only € 2.4 billion. True, that's for only 2,500 km of roads, but even provincial road spending is not much more than € 1 billion combined (including maintenance, construction & operations).
Yes, it may be true that Norway spends more on roads than most other countries during some years, but they didn’t in earlier centuries. While almost all Europe has a full motorway network between their 4 biggest cities, it will be still a dream in Norway to have even grade separated roads between them. The Netherlands only have to focus on motorway widening, a luxurious thing compared with the upgrade to decent roads (H5 "motortrafikkveg") in Norway. Norway should need a plan to meet a road infrastructure like in the rest of the Nordic, Switzerland or Austria. Anyhow the good thing is that at least budget is available.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 06:23 PM   #4430
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Quote:
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While almost all Europe has a full motorway network between their 4 biggest cities, it will be still a dream in Norway to have even grade separated roads between them.
The distances are typically further, the intermediate populations lower, the end populations also typically lower (mostly as the total populations are lower) and the terrain worse than the other countries.

And then we have to look at the reality in other countries. Defining Europe narrowly to be 'Europe west of what was the Iron Curtain' (so we have countries that have been rich for a while) minus microstates & Iceland (for the obvious reason that none have proper motorways, and most don't have a fourth biggest city) and 'motorway' as being a grade-separated road (so Sweden can have Stockholm & Uppsalla - Malmo), then it's 75%, which is hardly 'almost all'.

Sweden (link between Stockholm and Gothenburg missing), Ireland (no links between Galway, Limerick and Cork) and Finland (Oulu not on main motorway network, nor is there a Turku-Tampere link) join Norway in this. It's far from unique and also very justifiable.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 09:05 PM   #4431
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Quote:
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No photo of the new flyover?
I have a few bad photos of the flyover from August 25





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Old October 10th, 2016, 11:13 PM   #4432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Sweden (link between Stockholm and Gothenburg missing), Ireland (no links between Galway, Limerick and Cork) and Finland (Oulu not on main motorway network, nor is there a Turku-Tampere link) join Norway in this.
True.

The lowest AADT figures on 4/E75 between Jyväskylä and Oulu are slightly over 3000. There is no reason to invest into a motorway just for meeting some funny criteria valid in the crowded Central Europe.

The congested leg Jyväskylä-Äänekoski 35 km will be upgraded to 2+2 gradually. The next leg, about 100 km, is a partial 2+1 road, and the remaining 200- km are 1+1 road. No major bottlenecks north of Äänekoski, and the average speed made good usually is 95+ km/h, except during the winter months.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 01:08 PM   #4433
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Can be stormy weather this time of the year. Atlanterhavsvegen Rv 64 Molde-Kristiansund is in the Top 10 of Most Dangerous Roads on Earth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytJyWmxkjo.







This road is also ranked first on The Guardian's list of the world's best road trips:
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...nada.australia

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Old October 11th, 2016, 06:45 PM   #4434
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How much % is that brige step? I guess it's less than what appears in most photos, due to perspective.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 07:16 PM   #4435
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It's fairly steep, but greatly exaggerated on zoom photos. Just like that bridge in Japan that looks like a launch pad with a telephoto lens, but is just a 6% grade.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #4436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Sweden (link between Stockholm and Gothenburg missing), Ireland (no links between Galway, Limerick and Cork) and Finland (Oulu not on main motorway network, nor is there a Turku-Tampere link) join Norway in this. It's far from unique and also very justifiable.
Motorways between all top 4 cities are a guarantee to be in line with other European countries about the speed in road mobility. However it is definitively not the only facilitator. It is for Norway also possible with wide 1x2 roads. A study in 2016 with with GPS systems of TomTom and Google by comparing average rate on Euro-sections for a total of 17 countries http://www.aftenposten.no/norge/Nors...pa-54735b.html:

Portugal 117.9 km / h
Germany 114.2 km / h
Croatia: 112.3 km / h
France: 112.3 km / h
Spain 111.7 km / h
Italy 105.6 km / h
Austria: 102.8 km / h
Denmark: 102.4 km / h
UK: 101.9 km / h
Sweden: 99.8 km / h
Hungary: 99 km / h
Poland: 97.9 km / h
Switzerland: 93.9 km / h
Finland: 89.4 km / h
Ireland: 88,0 km / h
Norway: 70.3 km / h
Albania: 56.5 km / h

Norway is again on the bottom, not because there are no motorways or expressways between the top 4 cities, but because the roads are too narrow or have too many curves to reach a speed of only 80 km/h, such as (just as an example) here on primary main EW road E134 near Notodden.



It will be a quick win for Norway, when they upgrade the road between top 4 cities to at least a decent 1x2 road of 7 m with. Yes, that will cost some budget, because many rocks have to be cut, but don’t have to be an economic to conclude that it will be a big social benefit for the whole country. Unfortunately such a plan doesn’t exist. In the preview of the National Transport Plan, the road widening of E134 Notodden has been postponed till after 2029.
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Last edited by berlinwroclaw; October 12th, 2016 at 11:38 AM.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 01:40 PM   #4437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
Norway is again on the bottom, not because there are no motorways or expressways between the top 4 cities, but because the roads are too narrow or have too many curves to reach a speed of only 80 km/h, such as (just as an example) here on primary main EW road E134 near Notodden.
Perhaps because, despite the efforts of the Norwegian government to build long tunnels to bypass the worst bits of main roads (at great cost, and earning them great respect for the feats and a "you have too much money" type comment when the traffic volumes are shown), the fact remains that Norway is a mountainous country with low population density that is all clustered on the edge.

The distances involved make cross-country journeys better by plane even if there were decent roads (or railways). It's rugged coastline makes even along-coast routes hard to build, with slow ferries able to cut off such large distances over roads that they are worth taking. And the lack of population in the middle means low traffic volumes on roads making it not necessary to widen short narrow bits, or spend lots of money making a couple of minutes' time saving for a few hundred people each day (it either has to be cheap, or cut a lot of time off).
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It will be a quick win for Norway
Developing the engineering to build the Stavanger-Bergen link - floating tunnels (as the fjords are too deep) that will be the longest road tunnels in the world - that's not quick.

To call linking those top-4 cities with 7m 1x2 a quick win is laughable - it's an impressive feat. And be glad that Norway isn't seeking the 'quick win' approach on such a link, but will build 2x2.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 02:49 PM   #4438
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Norway is a mountainous country with low population density that is all clustered on the edge.
Is Norway the only country with mountains and rocky ground? The same or even more challenging is for Switzerland and Austria, still they managed to have a much better road mobility than Norway.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The distances involved make cross-country journeys better by plane even if there were decent roads (or railways).
Yes, a decent 1x2 road is still not a competion to air traffic. But when there are motorways, case studies in all countries show that airtraffic is a loser for distances below 500 km. Check out that airtraffic Kristiansand-Olso is relative minimal compared with Bergen-Oslo or Trondheim-Oslo, because a motorway Kristiansand-Olso is available:

Bergen - 64% domestic passengers
Kristiansand - 24% domestic passengers

It is likely that airtraffic will be reduced more and more because of rising oil prices and government limitations because of the fact that airtraffic is not sustainable, while the number of sustainable electric and hydrogen cars is rising fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
To call linking those top-4 cities with 7m 1x2 a quick win is laughable - it's an impressive feat. And be glad that Norway isn't seeking the 'quick win' approach on such a link, but will build 2x2.
It is my hope 2x2 motorways will be built soon between the top 4 cities, but unfortunately I haven’t found budget reservations for realisation till 2029. Is it possible that you can show me such plans? I cannot even find budget reservations to upgrade roads between top 4 cities with a minimum width of 7 m. Can you show me such upgrade plans?
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Last edited by berlinwroclaw; October 12th, 2016 at 02:54 PM.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 03:25 PM   #4439
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Is Norway the only country with mountains and rocky ground? The same or even more challenging is for Switzerland and Austria, still they managed to have a much better road mobility than Norway.
We've said it many times. Switzerland and Austria are more densely popoulated than Norway and have a lot of international through traffic that Norway obviously don't have. Moreover, most of their motorways run across populated valleys and there is no the fjords problem. Nevertheless, those two countries still lack some important motorway links in their most mountanious areas, like the second bore of Gothard tunnel, A13 Bellinzona-Chur, S16 and Arlberg tunnel in Austria, an A-CH motorway, A5 and S10 to Czechia, Karavanken tunnel to Slovenia, a motorway across Fernpass,...
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 04:15 PM   #4440
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Is Norway the only country with mountains and rocky ground? The same or even more challenging is for Switzerland and Austria, still they managed to have a much better road mobility than Norway.
Switzerland has mountains, sure, but also has bits in between where the people mostly live, and the motorways mostly run. It also has over 1.5 times the population in a smaller space (even if you chop off Norway north of Trondheim) and much more evenly distributed. Add in that, the far side of the mountains for Oslo is a handful of fairly small coastal cities (all in different directions), whereas for Switzerland it's millions of people: the demand for such roads is higher.
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But when there are motorways, case studies in all countries show that airtraffic is a loser for distances below 500 km.
It's time that's the factor, rather than distance - that 500km assumes a higher average speed than found in Norway on motorways - a journey time of ~4.5 hours is 110km/h average and sounds about right for the threshold, given rail's similar figure for when the plane wins (the share vs air begins to drop at rail taking more than 3 hours and becomes very poor above 4.5h).

Kristiansand is 320km from Oslo and takes 4 hours according to Google, so 80km/h average. Bergen is well over 5 hours from Oslo at that speed, even assuming a shortening of the route. There's also a lot more planes running to Bergen, making it much more convenient than Kristiansand, which sees only a couple of planes from Oslo each day.
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I cannot even find budget reservations to upgrade roads between top 4 cities with a minimum width of 7 m. Can you show me such upgrade plans?
No. Because rather than some arbitrary goal, they are seeking to put roads where needed at the capacity needed.

You can have hoop jumping for hoop jumping's sake, or you can have money spent where it's most needed.
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