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Old October 18th, 2016, 12:58 AM   #4461
Stafangr
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Originally Posted by coolstuff View Post
Norway should use more of its oil wealth to invest in profitable road projects.
No, we shouldn't. Should we spend more on infrastructure? Yeah, sure, but don't use the 'oil fund'. If we were to do that, Norway would suffer from the so called Dutch disease, making it a lot more difficult for the economy to transition away from its dependency on the oil industry.
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Old October 18th, 2016, 11:51 AM   #4462
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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
It is understandable that you are looking at a Norwegian perspective. But have you ever been on major mountain passes in winter in Czechia, Poland, Slovenia or Croatia?
What in the heck do the conditions Czechia, Poland, Slovenia or Croatia have to do with the fact that truck companies from eastern Europe tend to send incompetent drivers with lousy vehicles to the North in the winter?

The Port of Helsinki and the Finnish/Russian border stations are more vehicle inspection stations than customs offices. Quite a big fraction of the trucks are denied the entry. For that reason, many of the customs officers have a professional background of working as a car mechanic.
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Old October 18th, 2016, 12:26 PM   #4463
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Why E134 Oslo-Bergen?
A new motorway Bergen-Oslo is an original proposal of the best social economist of Norway. Feasibility study shows that E134 Bergen-Oslo will have a positive benefit to the country of NOK 26 billion. The Bergen Arm has a positive social impact of 14 billion. The Bergen Arm is supported by NPRA, road consultancy companies and almost all companies in the West and of all counties to Oslo. The government has selected the E134 via Haukeli in 2015 as the primary main road between East and West. Support under the population is growing every month as can be seen by the interest in media for it.



The motorway Bergen-Oslo is the direct connection between the West (1 million inhabitants) with the East (2 million inhabitants) over a distance of 380 km. In between, the road is near important industrial and tourist centers Røldal, Hovden, Rauland, Notodden, Kongsberg and Hokksund with a population of 0.1 million inhabitants. With indirect connections such as Bergen-Kristiansand (Rv 9) and Bergen-Porsgrunn/Skien/Larvik (Rv 35), the road has a very strong national impact.


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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
E134 only goes to Haugesund, unless they also make E39 Bergen-Stavanger ferry-free with very long bridges and/or tunnels
A new direct road is planned from the end of the Haukeli tunnels to Bergen via Odda. Ferry-free E39 only serves west coast cities. It is expected that Rv 52 will be selected by the government as secondary main road for traffic north of Bergen. After approval of the Rv 52 in mid-2017, it is expected the government will approve construction of the Bergen Arm soon after it.



It is possible that the label “E134” will become on the new road to Bergen because this city is more than 6 times bigger than Haugesund. The road to Haugesund will get its state road number, Rv 11. As usual in snowy and rocky Norway, there will be long bridges and tunnels in the road.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
that seems a very ambitious goal.
What do you call ambitious? High speed railway Bergen-Oslo will cost 250 billion. Ferry-free E39 Kristiansand-Trondheim will cost 320 billion. Next phase of it, Haugesund-Bergen will cost 43 billion and many politicians wants to postpone or cancel, because of the high costs.



After the approval of the Bergen Arm, a study about the most appropriate stretch will be launched. The cheapest solution is the northern alternative via Norheimsund with an upgrade of the existing road. Other alternatives via Tysse and Eikelandsosen are more expensive, but more desired. They are faster and have better social impact.

When the Bergen Arm will be ready, it will attract most traffic from all other roads and even from airlines on Bergen-Oslo.
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Old October 18th, 2016, 01:10 PM   #4464
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Originally Posted by Mathias Olsen View Post
What do you call ambitious? High speed railway Bergen-Oslo will cost 250 billion. Ferry-free E39 Kristiansand-Trondheim will cost 320 billion. Next phase of it, Haugesund-Bergen will cost 43 billion and many politicians wants to postpone or cancel, because of the high costs.
I've read that some Norweigian fjords are too deep and wide to be crossed with any conventional bridge or tunnel (bridges longer than 2km requires intermediate pillars, that can't be built in very deep water, and tunnels under water more than 300m deep have never been built either).
So, totally new technologies have to been developed (such as floating undersea tunnels, a concept that has been imagined by engineers since a century ago, but it was never built so far).
I don't know if it's the case of Stavanger-Bergen, though, but probably of other cross-fjord projects (maybe Tysfjord in the north, if I remember well).
The same engineering problem affects any fixed link that would be built across the Messina strait in Italy, further complicated by strong tides and high seismical activity.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old October 18th, 2016, 06:00 PM   #4465
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I've read that some Norweigian fjords are too deep and wide to be crossed with any conventional bridge or tunnel (bridges longer than 2km requires intermediate pillars, that can't be built in very deep water, and tunnels under water more than 300m deep have never been built either).
So, totally new technologies have to been developed (such as floating undersea tunnels, a concept that has been imagined by engineers since a century ago, but it was never built so far).
I don't know if it's the case of Stavanger-Bergen, though, but probably of other cross-fjord projects (maybe Tysfjord in the north, if I remember well).
You mean the E39 motorway bridge over Bjørnafjord of the Hordfast project. It is part of a planned motorway Haugesund-Bergen. Latest proposal is to use a floating bridge with new technology never used because the depth of the fjord is more than 500 m. At this moment the NPRA has chosen for 3 different floating bridge designs. One of them is a bridge with similar structures as the Nordhordland bridge. See photos below:







The bridge is rigidly clamped in both ends. There is a floating bridge concept for most of the bridge. Big ships are able to pass till an altitude of 45 m. Smaller vessels can pass under the rest of the bridge. Parliament has problems with the high costs of a 43 billion 2x2 motorway bridge. It is possible the design will be downgraded to a 1x2 bridge or that a new study will be started for another solution of the E39 motorway Haugesund-Bergen. http://www.midtsiden.no/e39-planen-er-klar

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The same engineering problem affects any fixed link that would be built across the Messina strait in Italy, further complicated by strong tides and high seismical activity.
Yes, it may be an idea to use the same concept as the Nordhordland bridge or this proposal for a Bjørnafjord for a bridge in Italy across Messina. You only need to stabilise the two pylons good enough, the rest is a floating bridge that need to resist high sea waves after earthquake.
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Last edited by Mathias Olsen; October 18th, 2016 at 06:11 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2016, 10:56 PM   #4466
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What in the heck do the conditions Czechia, Poland, Slovenia or Croatia have to do with the fact that truck companies from eastern Europe tend to send incompetent drivers with lousy vehicles to the North in the winter?
Did you read my post?

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Originally Posted by berlinwroclaw View Post
You will notice most of the major mountain passes are motorways and in other cases you will find decent 2 lane roads where trucks don't have problems to pass each other. Please try to understand the perspective of a foreigner who is used to drive on a motorway or wide 2 lane road, where it is no problem to have summer tires and single ax tractor units in winter.
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The Port of Helsinki and the Finnish/Russian border stations are more vehicle inspection stations than customs offices. Quite a big fraction of the trucks are denied the entry. For that reason, many of the customs officers have a professional background of working as a car mechanic.
Yes, the Finnish border police is doing a good job at the EU border. This is a contrast with border Norway/Sweden, where Norway is an associate member of the EU.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 02:44 AM   #4467
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I've read that some Norweigian fjords are too deep and wide to be crossed with any conventional bridge or tunnel (bridges longer than 2km requires intermediate pillars, that can't be built in very deep water, and tunnels under water more than 300m deep have never been built either).
So, totally new technologies have to been developed (such as floating undersea tunnels, a concept that has been imagined by engineers since a century ago, but it was never built so far).
Sognefjorden is the largest challenge on E39 (and the most wasteful from an economics point of view).

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Old October 19th, 2016, 08:40 AM   #4468
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Did you read my post?
Yes, I did. And I do not understand it all. Norwegians shalt not criticize foreign drivers entering Norway with lousy tracks because there are difficult places somewhere else in the world, too? This was my eldest daughter's favorite argumentation logic pattern when she was four.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 08:46 AM   #4469
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Originally Posted by Stafangr View Post
Sognefjorden is the largest challenge on E39 (and the most wasteful from an economics point of view).
Norway should sell Sognefjorden to Poland. That would turn the crossing to an intra-EU post-ironcurtain development project, and huge heaps of money would be available.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 10:43 AM   #4470
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The E39 Sognefjord crossing is far from sizable towns or cities, so it lacks the commuter traffic to make a very expensive investment viable.

Do you think a Sognefjord crossing on riksvei 5 makes more sense than E39?
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:20 PM   #4471
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The E39 Sognefjord crossing is far from sizable towns or cities, so it lacks the commuter traffic to make a very expensive investment viable.

Do you think a Sognefjord crossing on riksvei 5 makes more sense than E39?
I do not believe that would meet the Norwegian vision to create a coastal highway. The Rv5 crossing at Fodnes-Mannhiller is located 100 kilometers inlands.

The crossing point at Rv5 is challenging, too: The sea is 2.5 kilometers wide, and 800+ meters deep.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:28 PM   #4472
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Well, I do not see that crossing as an alternative to an E39 crossing, but Vegvesen has said that they want to make Riksvei 5 a primary route to the northwestern coastal cities.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:47 PM   #4473
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Well, I do not see that crossing as an alternative to an E39 crossing, but Vegvesen has said that they want to make Riksvei 5 a primary route to the northwestern coastal cities.
Rv5 is an east-west route while E39 is south-north one. They are not mutually exclusive. Rv5 is the access route from inland areas to the coast, and the E39 is the route between the coastal cities.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 02:44 PM   #4474
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Yes, I did. And I do not understand it all. Norwegians shalt not criticize foreign drivers entering Norway with lousy tracks because there are difficult places somewhere else in the world, too? This was my eldest daughter's favorite argumentation logic pattern when she was four.
The thing has to do with empathy. It is the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions. In other words: the ability to share someone else's feelings. For a foreigner who for the first time enters the roads outside the expressways around Norway, he experiences s**t. No matter how good you studied road forums like this, inspecting satellite maps and other maps, you come from surprise to surprise.

On the other side foreigners don't understand the situation of the drivers in Norway an isolated country with many mountains, rocks and thin populated areas. The mass transport developed more and more via air traffic than via road traffic. Drivers learned the skills to be careful on driving steep, narrow and curvy roads, unlike in other countries where most traffic goes over motorways and wide 2 lane roads.

It is a good practice that Norwegians shalt not criticize foreign drivers entering Norway. But with some empathy I can understand them when they criticize
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Old October 19th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #4475
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Sognefjorden is the largest challenge on E39 (and the most wasteful from an economics point of view).
Yes, it is the most wasteful from an economics point of view. In the words of Ketil Solvik-Olsen: "things that are not strictly necessary, but that is "nice to have" while others take the bill. Therefore, we must set limits which want local politicians and interest groups to get repaid" or in business language: "not a profitable road project". I think the ferry-free E39 doesn't make much chance north of Bergen till 2040.

Profitable road constructions are IMO upgrade North-South road E6 Oslo-Steinkjer; upgrade East-West road E134 Drammen-Bergen/Haugesund and upgrade all E-roads and all profitable Riksvei to satisfy the demands of two-lane road with yellow centerline.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #4476
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Construction company chosen for Western Kongsberg E134 expressway bypass

Nine companies were interested in the construction of E134 expressway Trollerud Moen-Saggrenda, which is the last segment on the new 13 km E134 Kongsberg bypass. The new section has a length of 4.7 km with two 2 tunnels and the Saggrenda bridge over the Kobberbergselva river of 312 m, a four lane bridge.



Here are the amounts in NOK:

1. AF Metro Stav, Berthelsen and Garpestad AS and HAG Construction AS - 643 730 726.00
2. ALDES - 665 722 842.83
3. Implenia Norway AS - 668 747 018.00
4. Hæhre Entreprenør AS - 674 883 246.79
5. Veidekke Entreprenør AS - 682 654 241.28
6. Strabag - 688 556 236.65
7. Kruse Smith AS - 696 629 200.40
8. AF Gruppen AS - 738 828 352.52
9. OHL - 1,089,897 836.34

The Czech-Norwegian cooperation AF Metro Stav, Berthelsen and Garpestad AS and HAG Construction was the lowest. Contract will be signed in November 2016. The new E134 Kongsberg bypass will be ready in Autumn 2019.

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Old October 20th, 2016, 08:12 PM   #4477
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Fv. 258 Gamle Strynefjellsvegen

The old road across Strynefjell. It was the main road between east and west from Sogn og Fjordane until a new tunnel route of riksvei 15 opened to traffic in 1977.


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gamle Strynefjellsvegen-7 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old October 20th, 2016, 11:02 PM   #4478
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Do you get more traction with dual rear axles? You'd think more weight on a single axle means more traction, but I've noticed most Scandinavian trucks indeed have tandem rear axles.

A Highway Thru Hell series based in Norway could be rather interesting
Absolutely dual rear axels give significantly more traction and braking, one thing I'm surprised that hasn't come to Norwegian trucking is dual steering, in some countries with hills and tight roads, like NZ a lot of tractor units are dual steer with tandem axels, they have much improved turning.

There is a highway thru hell like series set in Norway, it's on discovery, just can't remember the name.
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Old October 20th, 2016, 11:16 PM   #4479
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I disagree with your sweeping statement. There is no evidence to suggest that "most of those trucks involved in accidents are foreign registered, usually from Eastern Europe".
It's not a sweeping statement a friend of mine is a recovery driver for Viking, he's always pulling foreign trucks out of trouble in winter, many don't have winter tires or even chains, it's mostly truckers from the Baltic States and Eastern Europe who cause the problems. A friend of a friend manages a Dekkman, throughout winter they receive a steady stream of Baltic and Eastern European trucks which the police have removed from the road until the tires haves been changed to winter tires, a new set on a truck runs to well over 100k, it's good business.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 09:52 AM   #4480
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There is a highway thru hell like series set in Norway, it's on discovery, just can't remember the name.
Ice road rescue, National Geographic Channel.
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