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Old November 30th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #441
ElviS77
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As stated, I'd return to the issue of challenges regarding Norwegian highway/motorway plans and administration. Imho, our biggest problem is the massive political infuence on road projects, and one of the worst consequences is the fact that we get plenty of brand new roads not up to the tast they're intended to deal with. 2-lane expressway kill zones are classic examples. However, the biggest scandals in the making today, are proposed motorways which will not be motorways... I'll explain: Several projects are planned to 4-lane motorway standard, but with 2 bus lanes (rv 4 and the E18 Mossevei tunnel in Oslo, new Sotra link on the rv 555 outside Bergen), . Fair enough, one might say, it's sensible to promote public transport in urban areas, and I'd agree. The problem is that the aforementioned roads at the moment have an AADT of 30,000+...

To make matters worse, the proposed alignments have other issues as well. The rv 4 will get a buslaned 4-lane road parallell to itself (the current 4-lane rv 4) - this section also runs through a densely populated area (the rv 4 will be a tunnel road...). The proposed new E18 is even worse, it's supposed to become a 7-km tunnel without any exits for local traffic or buses. Even so, 2+2 with two dedicated bus lanes... Btw, the existing E18 along a beautiful stretch of fjord is a massive 30,000+ AADT barrier between the fjord and residential neighbourhoods. Of course, one of its main functions is to carry local traffic, both buses and cars. The tunnel will not help doing either, so the barrier effect will remain (and dealing with that is the main excuse for the tunnel project in the first place...). The new Sotra link is possibly the worst of the lot: a new 4-lane bridge parallell to the excisting 2-lane is proposed, and, of course, with two bus lanes. A 10-km tunnel solution is rejected, since that will make the bus lanes useless as local bus traffic would not be able to use the tunnel (for some reason, with the similar-length Mossevei tunnel in Oslo, such concerns have not been considered...).

All these projects are a result of the same political ideology: no more car lanes into urban areas and better conditions for public transport. The problems are obvious. The ideas don't work as they are presented. The rv 4 bus lanes are pointless, even express buses would probably not use them (bus lanes along the excisting rv 4 make sense, though). The E18 should get a proper 4-/6-lane motorway tunnel with 2 or 3 exits for local traffic, and the current road should be closed for anything but public transport and local traffic. Alternatively, the E18 should be realigned along the E6, and the money saved used for a widening of that motorway. The rv 555 should probably - due to the bridge's exposure to heavy winds - be built as a tunnel, but even if not, it would be far better to use the existing bridge as a bus/local traffic road.

These suggestions won't cost much, if anything, and they make far more sense. Will they happen? Don't really think so.
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Old November 30th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #442
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Something i'm wondering about when Norway builds 4 lane roads, they are always with roadlights, while in most countries these roads don't have them. It strikes me as a bit useless to have these on such good quality roads with few accidents... Any toughts about that?
In my opinion this is waste of energy. Negative impact on environment should also be considered. I am not sure if statistics support the idea that lighting reduces accidents on such high quality roads i.e. costs are greater than benefits.

Last edited by pijanec; November 30th, 2008 at 03:15 PM.
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Old November 30th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
I'll explain: Several projects are planned to 4-lane motorway standard, but with 2 bus lanes (rv 4 and the E18 Mossevei tunnel in Oslo, new Sotra link on the rv 555 outside Bergen), . Fair enough, one might say, it's sensible to promote public transport in urban areas, and I'd agree. The problem is that the aforementioned roads at the moment have an AADT of 30,000+...
Bus lanes are never gonna take enough people off the road into the bus to justify a buslane over a second lane per direction. You see this in the Netherlands too... traffic jams and an empty bus lane next to it for 4 - 10 buses an hour. What an incredible inefficient usage of space.

If you build 2x2 lanes, all traffic will flow smoothly, including buses. Now 95% of the road users are in traffic jams while 5% travels subsidized at the cost of those who are in the traffic jam.
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Old November 30th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #444
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Bus lanes are never gonna take enough people off the road into the bus to justify a buslane over a second lane per direction.
At least not on high-speed roads. 2+2 (or 3+3)+1+1 would make sense in places, though.

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You see this in the Netherlands too... traffic jams and an empty bus lane next to it for 4 - 10 buses an hour. What an incredible inefficient usage of space.
What I did like in Utrecht, though, was separate bus roads in the city. That meant you'd have effective bus connections even in peak hours. Thus, I wouldn't mind seeing the Mossevei closed for anything but local traffic and buses when (or if...) it's eventually replaced.

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If you build 2x2 lanes, all traffic will flow smoothly, including buses. Now 95% of the road users are in traffic jams while 5% travels subsidized at the cost of those who are in the traffic jam.
To some extent, I agree. However, it is very difficult, harmful to the environment and immensely costly to build enough motorways to rid a country or city of jams altogether. We need an effective public transport system, but we need enough road lanes as well. In the case of Oslo, politicians and bureaucrats have decided that one should not increase lane capacity into the city. The result? Ideas such as a 7-km 2+2 tunnel without legal overtaking opportunities...
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Old November 30th, 2008, 09:43 PM   #445
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When it comes to lighting it would come to much better use on a wigly road where difficult weather is common, like Rv 7 - Hardangervidda or simular roads. Or where there are pedestrians and bikers along the road, head on trafic blinding you, no stop lane, animals etc. It just seems so wasteful, and it's even more calming to drive on a dark motorway when directions are separated (And meating trafic don't blind you).


When it comes to Mosseveien tunnel, i don't understand why they don't sign the Ryentunnel as E18 and make direct exit ramps Ryentunnelen - E6 South.
While Mosseveien has a busslane northbound (wich is used for exits, bikes and taxis aswell), instead of this it could have a center one lane busway for northbound busses in the morning and southbound in the evening, and combining this with a drasticly improving frequensy on Ĝstfoldbanen, once the express-trains are gone and maybe there's not a need for a Mosseveitunnel anymore.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 02:12 AM   #446
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(And meating trafic don't blind you).
But they do, and that's the problem. In America it works, because their standard-lights are more powerful.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #447
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Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Norway? Thanks
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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #448
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Why? they are pretty simple...

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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:17 PM   #449
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i mean a table by border crossing
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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:23 PM   #450
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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #451
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Thanks a lot!!!
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Old December 16th, 2008, 06:14 PM   #452
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wow. thats really simple to keep it in head...
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Old December 16th, 2008, 07:59 PM   #453
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Weird to not mention the motorway speed limits. I don't recall ever seeing a sign like that when crossing from Sweden, but to be honest there are none on the Swedish side, either. At least not on the E18.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 08:11 PM   #454
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I think they only have them at Svinesund (E6 and Rv118). There is no general speed limit for motorways yet, so there's always a 100-sign entering the motorways:P What i miss is a sign at the entrance of villages/towns, like they have in for example Belgium, it's not always obvious if the limit is 50 or 80, and they are great for knowing where you are;P

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Last edited by Ingenioren; December 16th, 2008 at 08:20 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 08:48 PM   #455
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The problem with a "urban"/"rural" signposting in Norway is that you rarely get a simple 50-80 limit change. Normally, you'll get a shorter or longer 60 or 70 zone in between. I remember there at least used to be such signs somewhere in Lĝrenskog... only that above the end-of-urban area signs they'd stuck a couple of 60 signs...
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Old December 16th, 2008, 08:51 PM   #456
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See more 60's than 50's here. Several 70's too where its less urban than a village.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #457
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This fall when certain motorway stretches could get 120 Vägverket changed their policy so that regardless of the sign, the speed limit will be signed -- so all motorway entrances that would have no speed limit sign because it was 110 will not have a 110 sign, city signs will have a 50 sign above it, when you leave it it'll have a 70 sign, etc. (if those are in fact the speed limits then of course).
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Old December 16th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #458
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See more 60's than 50's here. Several 70's too where its less urban than a village.
Exactly. I do, however, see the merits of a differenciated speed limit system where the limit actually reflects the road's standard. Our system is a bit over-differentiated, though. I'd also like to see a designated motorway limit. Preferbly 110 or 120, but I'll take 100 for now.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 11:31 PM   #459
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I actually think Norwegian roads are good on that point; I never sit wondering about what the speed limit is. Just came back from Cyprus, you drive along a road with no sign telling you it's 80, and then suddenly signs of corners with 65 and 50 on them - makes me crazy..
One thing I really love about Norwegian highways is that they are lit up. Too little motorway here, but atleast it's quality

Speedlimits could be 120 from Vinterbro to Svinesund without a problem.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #460
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They didn't want to raise the speed-limit because it would increase car-emissions....
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