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Old August 27th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #4901
OulaL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
I thought so, too, as all sources (my maps, Google etc.) said exactly what you're saying, but driving there, it turned out that both the Norwegian 893 and the Finnish 971 had been renumbered...
What is the control destination? Still Ivalo, or has that been changed as well (Alta or something)?
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Old August 27th, 2017, 06:37 PM   #4902
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Furthermore... Inari and Sør-Varanger municipalities have for some time had a desire for a new, shorter road, on the east side of Lake Inari.

Upgrading the old road on the west side may send a message that such a road is not going to be.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 07:47 PM   #4903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
What is the control destination? Still Ivalo, or has that been changed as well (Alta or something)?
Well, I drove towards Kirkenes, and as far as I can remember, that was the control destination. Southbound? I don't really know. I do find it a bit funny, though, that the two countries basically have agreed to let one national road run through two countries...
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:16 PM   #4904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Well, I drove towards Kirkenes, and as far as I can remember, that was the control destination. Southbound? I don't really know. I do find it a bit funny, though, that the two countries basically have agreed to let one national road run through two countries...
The road Rv93 and the Finnish 93 meet too, until the route will be renumbered to E45 (N) and 93/E45 (FIN).
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Old August 27th, 2017, 11:25 PM   #4905
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Furthermore... Inari and Sør-Varanger municipalities have for some time had a desire for a new, shorter road, on the east side of Lake Inari.

Upgrading the old road on the west side may send a message that such a road is not going to be.
I believe there is no political drive to build that road on either side of the border. Norway talks officially about money but the Norwegian defense might resist in the background, too.

https://www.ifinnmark.no/sorsia/mini...-30002-7459242

On the Finnish side, the question is even more complex. Both money and defense talk, but the environmental values, too. Since 1980's, there has been an open dispute on whether the area should be protected or not.

The gap between the existing roads is about 35-40 kilometers, depending on how much buffer to leave between the road and the Finnish-Russian frontier zone. (Not counting the forest road on the Finnish side beginning at Virtaniemi and extending some 15 km towards Norway. Not feasible.) In addition, about 150 kilometers of existing regional roads would need a pretty heavy upgrade. Because this route would not save time a lot, I do not believe it will be build during the next few decades. Ivalo-Kirkenes over the existing road is 240 km and the proposed route about 205-210 km.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #4906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
What is the control destination? Still Ivalo, or has that been changed as well (Alta or something)?
The E6 is "only" about 50 km longer route between Karasjok and Kirkenes than the N92-FIN92-N92. Signposting destinations on E6 over any other route than E6 would be a surprise.

BTW, Narvik is displayed as the destination in the confirmation signs on E6 close to Kirkenes. The distance is calculated over E6 even if the route is about 150 km and several hours longer than E6-N92-FIN92-N92-N93-FIN93-FIN21-E45-E10 via Finland and Sweden. Quite often, there is reluctance to signpost domestic destinations over foreign roads. Not always.

Last edited by MattiG; August 27th, 2017 at 11:45 PM. Reason: Karasjok, not Karajok
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Old August 28th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #4907
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There is no reluctance to signpost over international borders I think (any more than county borders!), but there is certainly a high resistance in SVV to signpost routes across different road numbers. Good example are the consequent signposting of E6 and E16 from Oslo to Trondheim and Bergen, respectively, which in neither case is the fastest nor dominant route. Hence, signposting across something like E6-N92-FIN92-N92-N93-FIN93-FIN21-E45-E10 will never, ever, happen. On the other hand, foreign cities are frequently used as control cities for E-roads.

With respect to the resistance against signposting across county borders, Rv 3 is for instance consistently signposted to local places, like in this intersection in Rena: https://goo.gl/maps/wHDGRHHF4Rw
Rv 3 is the defacto main road Oslo-Trondheim, but directions are given to the small town of Elverum towards the south/Oslo and tiny place of Tynset (to which Rv 3 strictly speaking does not even enter)) towards the north/ Trondheim. Similar examples can be found all over Norway. For instance on Rv 150 (Ring 3) in Oslo, where tourists need to know the different suburbs of Oslo in order to understand which direction to go (prior to GPS, that is....). If nothing else is possible, more frequent use of cardinal directions in Norwegian signposting would certainly have helped.

PS: I did an experiment with Google maps and found that 5 intermediate points were needed in order for E6 to be chosen for the entire 2608 km / 36 hours between Svinesund at the southern border to Sweden and the north-eastern terminus of E6 in Kirkenes: https://goo.gl/maps/BAWvtudBPJH2 To put the distance into perspective, Svinesund - Naples is shorter at 2580 km / 27 hrs. Even SVV does not signpost that far, however....
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; August 28th, 2017 at 07:08 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #4908
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No, i dont think that part of Norway is. I still say that part also look more like Austria. And the more flat parts look maybe more like Slovenia.

Norway is special, and thay is the beauty with Norway.
If you look at road 110 - it runs trough a flat landscape, could be Denmark. Serves as the main acces to a town of 80.000 people i consider it one of the worst roads in Norway, i can think of no other such large town with such a poor access road in either nordic countries. (Also there are no plans for building a proper road there)
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Old August 28th, 2017, 11:39 PM   #4909
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How does Song og Fjordane manage to maintain county roads since so little people live there and so few tax kroner flow through local taxes?
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Old August 29th, 2017, 12:57 AM   #4910
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Neither counties nor municipalities in Norway collect their own tax money. They're all granted from the state, and the state decide on the share granted based on different criterias whereas population only plays a certain roll.
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Old August 29th, 2017, 04:04 AM   #4911
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A test project with radar controlled road lighting that will sense when a car approaches will be rolled out on county road 155 in Buskerud county this fall.

https://www.vareveger.no/artikler/te...lysning/404367
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Old August 29th, 2017, 12:04 PM   #4912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
There is no reluctance to signpost over international borders I think (any more than county borders!), but there is certainly a high resistance in SVV to signpost routes across different road numbers.
To clarify: By "signposting domestic destinations over foreign roads", I tried to describe a setup where the sign and destination are in the same country, but the route patrially traverses a foreign country. For example signposting Rv92 to Karasjok at E6xRv92 in Neiden. Or signposting the FIN93 to Inari (FIN) over the Rv93/Rv92 in Enontekiö (FIN).

There are not many such candidates in Norway. In other countries, the local road administrators seem reluctant to create such arrangements, too.
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Old August 29th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #4913
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As a comparison, Austria signposts Innsbruck via Germany (A8 and A93) on Knoten Salzburg (A1-A10).
Italy signposts Cuneo in Ventimiglia via France (D6204).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 29th, 2017, 05:59 PM   #4914
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Construction update of the Hålogolands bridge. The road deck elements have also arrived to the port of Narvik now. It was earlier said that they would start the work on them in August but that seems to have been delayed.


https://instme.com/photo/BYV1umjAq38
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Old August 30th, 2017, 01:49 AM   #4915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
I believe there is no political drive to build that road on either side of the border. Norway talks officially about money but the Norwegian defense might resist in the background, too.
Yes, I know that both states are reluctant. As I said, it had been a local initiative.

Here I found one of the declining answers three years ago, https://www.ifinnmark.no/sorsia/mini...-30002-7459242
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Old August 30th, 2017, 01:56 AM   #4916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Quite often, there is reluctance to signpost domestic destinations over foreign roads. Not always.
Quite so. However, that leads to questioning why the number was changed in the first place, if not to give a clear message about a possible shortcut.

Maybe the best-known counter example are Salzburg and Innsbruck, which are signposted to each other over Germany. (Then again, there is no customs line between Germany and Austria.)
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Old August 30th, 2017, 08:20 AM   #4917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Quite so. However, that leads to questioning why the number was changed in the first place, if not to give a clear message about a possible shortcut.
Road numerology is a cheap way to give an impression that the neighbors develop their road networks in a close co-operation. :-)

Quote:
Maybe the best-known counter example are Salzburg and Innsbruck, which are signposted to each other over Germany. (Then again, there is no customs line between Germany and Austria.)
Other such cases can be found in the Schaffhausen area in Switzerland. The Swiss road 4 is signposted to Zürich, and 13 to Basel, both over the German soil.

The Dutch N274 is a different case. It is split into two parts having six kilometers of German L410 in between. Neither of the parts is signposted to a Dutch location behind Germany. The North part is signposted to a small town of Gangelt in Germany while the South one to Schinveld, which is the last Dutch village before the border.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #4918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
If you look at road 110 - it runs trough a flat landscape, could be Denmark. Serves as the main acces to a town of 80.000 people i consider it one of the worst roads in Norway, i can think of no other such large town with such a poor access road in either nordic countries. (Also there are no plans for building a proper road there)
I would argue that E6 south of Trondheim is an even worse example, with significantly higher population. However, there at least, there are plans for improvement, and the parts closest to the city is currently under construction. Having said that, I am all for improving the 110, it will save me a couple of minutes every year ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
To clarify: By "signposting domestic destinations over foreign roads", I tried to describe a setup where the sign and destination are in the same country, but the route patrially traverses a foreign country. For example signposting Rv92 to Karasjok at E6xRv92 in Neiden. Or signposting the FIN93 to Inari (FIN) over the Rv93/Rv92 in Enontekiö (FIN).

There are not many such candidates in Norway. In other countries, the local road administrators seem reluctant to create such arrangements, too.
I understood what you meant, but I did not read the previous posts regarding Neiden-Karasjok carefully enough, my mistake. I have not seen (recent) signs up there (it is a few km away...), but I would indeed be surprised if Rv 92 is signposted to Karasjok from Neiden. Even if the route also along Rv / Fin 92 could be said to be continous, SVV has a strong tendency to signpost destinations along E-roads, as discussed above. Hence, if E6 was rerouted to the current 92, Karasjok signposting would probably still follow E6 even if it went through Finland.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 12:53 PM   #4919
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The push for a giant bridge across Trondheimsfjorden just west of Trondheim seems to gain momentum, and will go through a public study by the county. The bridge will be at least 5 km, and floating options are studied. According to the municipalities north of the fjord pushing for the bridge, it will be economic viable even without public funding. The plan is to build a second bridge across a fjord arm such that also the Ørland area, with the national air force base, will have a shorter distance to Trondheim. At the same time, a combined power cable / road tunnel is also being studied at the mouth of the fjord. The mayor out there claims that all three giant projects could be built.....

This certainly remains to be seen, but what I really do not understand (comparing with other regions) is why the whole Fosen area including Namsos is not served by a single national road (Rv).

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Old August 30th, 2017, 04:36 PM   #4920
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What happened to the E6 bridge at Minnesund? It's closed due to a settling issue. I hope it's not as bad as E18 at Holmestrand last year. The E6 bridge is only a few years old.
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