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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #481
Ingenioren
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More terrible roads from Norway:







Rv50:

E134, Haukeli:


Bergen - Gjøvik in 5 minutes:


It's all nice and enjoyable in the summer, but the summer is short...
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #482
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The problem is that if you can't drive E6, the only (better) alternative is Sweden....

Sorry that I was a bit unclear regarding the Suleskar road. It is certainly the fastest route during summer if you drive a small car, but you burn a lot of fuel due to all the hills, and many stretches (including the actual rv 45, as you point out) is not suitable for neither trucks or RVs.

Edit: Seems like our posts crossed.....
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:17 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
I like the principle, but in my opinion it should suffice to constrain national routes between number 1-9, optionally including the E-numbers. As I have claimed before, I think there are currently too many "green" roads, and they only seem to multiply, which means that the politicians never will be able to prioritize the most important roads.
Well, a 1-30 system the way I see it would consist of 23 non-E-routes and include stuff like the Ring 3 in Oslo. Nonetheless, I agree, at least in part: There are a few strange "green" routes. Still, keeping roads national becomes an issue as well...

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PS: I tried the Rendalen road some time ago. You were right, it was very straight at places, but at others it was very hilly and curvy, and everywhere it was quite narrow. In conclusion I would not recommended this road over rv 3 except for people who want to try their new sports car (in summer time)....
Well, it's certainly not for everyone (particularly not for truckers...) and I don't think I'd use it in the winter, but in summer conditions, it's nice and quick and relaxing.
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Old February 18th, 2009, 02:02 PM   #484
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According to what has been told about the new transportation plan for 2010-19, most of the money will go to railroad-projects. The money for roads will mostly be used on maintainance and safety efforts.

It's official. The government believes Norwegian roads are good enough as they are..
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Old February 18th, 2009, 05:50 PM   #485
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There will be muchmuch much more tolls
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Old February 18th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #486
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Most likely. Read a couple of days ago about toll booths and how in some of them the trafic pays more than 100% of the costs. It doesn't help that most of the operating companies are some corrupt bastards either
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Old February 20th, 2009, 11:32 AM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Well, a 1-30 system the way I see it would consist of 23 non-E-routes and include stuff like the Ring 3 in Oslo.
Ring 3 is a very important and in Norwegian terms highly trafficated road, but it serves local traffic and hence should not be included in the Stamveger (or new Riksveier, if you like). Vålerenga and Ekeberg tunnel systems should be included, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Nonetheless, I agree, at least in part: There are a few strange "green" routes. Still, keeping roads national becomes an issue as well...
Seems like FrP and Høyre wants a rematch regarding the new county road concept and keep most of the roads national. It will be exciting to see how the elections go this fall......

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Most likely. Read a couple of days ago about toll booths and how in some of them the trafic pays more than 100% of the costs. It doesn't help that most of the operating companies are some corrupt bastards either
Of course, every project with "100 %" toll financing is in essence sponsoring the government, directly through VAT and indirectly through income taxes of the construction companies and their employees.
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Old March 14th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #488
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The latest "National Transport Plan" was presented this week. It is supposed to represent infrastructure priorities for the next decade, but as most Norwegians know, things have a remarkable tendency to change from year to year... Generally, the rail proposals have gotten a favourable reception, in terms of road, it's been more of a mixed affair. I'm not getting into much of this for now, instead, I'll give a brief resume of the main ideas: about 230 kms new motorway will be built and the E6, E39 and E16 will get special attention. It's supposed to be a massive step forward, even though many important projects will remain in 2020.

Personally, I think we need more than this, but it's difficult to see how we're going to get it. The right-wing Progress Party's ideas are, predictably, way out in space (2000+ kms of motorway construction), and they're not particularly interested in compromises, either. The centrist Liberals and Christian Democrats are reasonably happy, whereas the Conservatives have their own ideas - it's just that they're not all that good at presenting them to the people or their potential government partners (whomever they may eventually be...).

(The way I see it, a completely and utterly unlikely grand coalition between the Conservatives and the Labour Party would be the only way further forward, infrastructure-wise.)
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Old March 15th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #489
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Just to supplement Elvis77 a little...

The national transport plan traditionally is revised every four years in Norway, roughly half a year before the next general election in Norway, a convenient time for the ruling politicians to present their infrastructure plans for the next 10 years period. The timing is quite unfortunate, to say the least. First of all, policians are not particuarly thrustworthy before elections, and that a project is in the plan, hence does not necessarily mean that it will be completed within the time frame of the plan. This is particularly true for projects of the last 6 years of the plan. Secondly, a study has shown, the projects that are actually put into the plan, are not those that are most beneficiary for the society, but those that are located in counties where votes are most worth, i.e. either in counties where the votes actually count more (in Norway, there are roughly half the number of votes behind each member of parliament compared with Oslo), or in counties where the ruling coalition has marginal seats. Also, this hunt for votes means that they tend to chop the cake in very small pieces, which in the end is very inefficient, and it is very hard to do radical changes.

Naturally, also transport issues that get a lot of attention from the national press tend to get a higher level of funding, and this typically means that projects in the capital area IMO are more likely to be backed. However, that means that some counties always seems to have a bad hand. A far better way to organize the decisions for the transport infrastructure, in my opinion, is to let the parliament/policians draw up the big lines, with a plan lasting for far more than 4 years, and let the professionals decide the implementation.

This time around, they are on the highway sector promising 75 billion NOK (8.5 billion Euro) in government funds in investments, in addition they anticipate 60 billion in tolls over the next 10 year period! 75 billion may sound like a lot, but to put it into perspective, car related taxes in Norway amounts to 60 billion a YEAR currently, i. e. at least 600 billion during the next 10 years.

Here is a map indicating most of the projects:


Projects indicated in grey is said to start in the latter 6 years of the period, but as discussed above, the plan for the latter 6 years is usually not very reliable.

The government claim that the plans mean that there will be built 230 km of new four lane roads (not necessarily motorways) during the next 10 year period, but a lot of the projects are at the end of the 10 year period and dependent on toll financing and further studies, i.e. mostly to have something to brag about in the upcoming election. This is particularly true, I am afraid, for the Rogfast tunnel, the 20 km long submarine motorway tunnel that we have discussed previously, in this thread. Almost all of the bigger projects is at the west coast (home turf of the transport minister) or in the eastern part of Norway. Almost all railway investments will be in the commuter area around Oslo. My own former home county around Trondheim will not have startup of a single major road project during the next four year period, except for perhaps 100 % toll financed projects in and around the city.

All in all, I think this is pretty much the best we can expect from the current government, as the level of financing is probably a bit better than it would have been without the financial crisis. Most dissapointing with the plan is the total lack of addressing of one of the major issues in Norwegian road building, that the projects are to small, too short sighted, and that the politicians keep on changing their mind. This makes Norwegian roads quite expensive to build, much more expensive than for instance in Sweden.

As ElviS77 mentioned, the Progress Party, currently the biggest opposition party, presented their own plan on Thursday. I don't feel like restarting the discussion whether Norway needs a national motorway network or not (I guess both ElivS77 and myself got quite exhausted at the end, but the interested reader can revisit the discussion here), but this is what the Progress party prelimnary plan for 2035:

Not very dissimilar from the plan I proposed:

The major difference is that they have a few more roads around Oslo, lacks a direct Stavanger-Bergen link, and have plaved the Oslo - Trondheim through (or under?) the Dovre mountains national park, whereas I would prefer a 40-50 km shorter, and less vulnerable route further to the east.

In the progress party plan they also presented a hopefully updated AADT map of the national highways of Norway.

It should be noted that on most of the interregional links in Norway air traffic dominates due to the lack of a proper landbased, more climate friendly alternative. Also, Norway has one of the highest population growths of Europe, so the AADT numbers will IMO probably continue to increase a lot in the years to come. This was however a matter of debate in our previous discussion, so I won't go any further into it here.....

What I like about the Progress party plan is that they want to set aside a large fund (300 billion NOK / 34 billion Euro) for infrastructure investments. This will make the road builders less dependent on yearly government budgets and whims. I also really like the fact that they aim to make a real strategic plan for infrastructure planning in Norway, with a wider horisont than the next election. This has completely lacked this far. However, I am not sure whether I can get myself to vote for that party because I despise their politics on some other areas, in particular on climate....
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Old March 15th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #490
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Great summary. Thanks
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Old March 16th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #491
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Thanks for the map! I must say i'm pretty impressed with the amount of projects in the first face, i tought they where shifting priorities towards maintenance. But as mentioned, larger projects would attract further competion from internatioal contracters, making it possible to increase spendings even further!

Oh! I want that Oslo Ring built Asap! And it's about time they do something about the missing link in Rv23, i couldn't believe my own eyes the first time i drove it and ended up stuck behind 10 + cars yielding for the local road from _Spikkestad_ (!) I'm glad they are accepting to use a little money on Rv3 and E16, altough i would wish they choose Rv52 as a main route to Bergen instead and tunnel the whole mountain-pass, it will be even better route with the upgrades of Rv7....

On another note, why would they build a new E6 trough Oppdal Sentrum? The general idea of a main route like E6 is that is shouldn't cross trough places that are named Sentrum....
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Old March 16th, 2009, 08:07 PM   #492
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Most of the money spent on E16 will be between Hønefoss and Bærum, which is to get a decent connection to Oslo for the Hønefoss, Valdres and Hallingdal regions.

Totally agree with you on the Rv23 part. The project is more or less a scandal how it just "ends" in an intersection in nowhere, and has so for a decade.

And I of course don't support most of the conclusions made by the government in this transportation plan, and feel that it only covers the most needed/media covered projects, probably securing some undeserved votes.
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Old March 16th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #493
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Even with the level of activity on E16 in recent years, there are still a few bad pieces in Valdres and Lærdal, that looks according to the map they are covering most of them. While Rv52 / Rv7 has had a much better standard from the start, and it's even shorter. And i naturally the population south of Oslo is larger than north.... I don't see any arguments supporting the location of E16 as the main route east-west route to Bergen....
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Old March 16th, 2009, 10:55 PM   #494
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I don't see any arguments supporting the location of E16 as the main route east-west route to Bergen....
Well, the argument that has won the day this far, is that the E16 "always" remain open in the winter...
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
I don't see any arguments supporting the location of E16 as the main route east-west route to Bergen....
Previous reason: Opseth (Førde)
Current even better reason: Navarsete (Lærdal)
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Well, the argument that has won the day this far, is that the E16 "always" remain open in the winter...
Tunnels would solve this on alternative shorter, and currently more trafficked routes.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #496
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To me, a 2x2 motorway on the E6 route seems out of the question due to way too low traffic volumes. But are there plans to say; realign parts of the E6 so traffic flow quality will be increased?
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Old March 18th, 2009, 01:48 AM   #497
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You don't even need tunnels (Altough it's the best alternative, might also reduce steep climbs), with works on the terrain and raising the road so the snow blows past it - a lot is achieved.

I think (and hope) they will try to make most of E6 wide enough for a hard or soft barrier and extra lanes for uphills and every now and then.... 2+2 is imo. needed only to Lillehammer and from Melhus to Steinkjer....
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Old March 18th, 2009, 02:09 AM   #498
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Agreed that only 2+2 highway to Lillehammer will be enough, if the rest of the road would get a higher standard regarding width and the climbs would be reduced. But there has to be some sort of transportation that can compete with the plane on the stretch, so either way we would need a better railroad connection (HSR?). But eitherway if a new railroad or a new road would be constructed between Oslo and Trondheim, we would save a LOT on building the two at the same time (in the same paths).
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Old March 18th, 2009, 02:18 AM   #499
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Some photos from the most recently completed road-projects, 2008-2009:

Rv13 Tunnel north of Voss:





E18 motorway trough Drammen:





Rv55 tunnel along Sognefjorden:



E6 motorway trough Østfold:



E39 Romarheimsdalen:





E16 Lærdal:





E39 intersection Bergen:





Larvik ferry terminal:

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Old March 18th, 2009, 02:56 AM   #500
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Great road

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