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Old October 9th, 2017, 04:47 PM   #5021
Galro
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Fosskolltunnelen outside of Drammen is a triple-tube tunnel. I can't think of any others right now though.

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Old October 9th, 2017, 05:06 PM   #5022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
There are more than 22 000 bridges, with a total length of 893 km. Most of these bridges are in other words rather short. With regards to classification of these, it was a mess in "vegkart", but it seems like at least 83 were suspension bridges. Typically these may expected to be among the longer bridges, of course.
As the link tells, many of the suspension bridges are more than 25 years old. Nowadays, some of those would probably be constructed as cable-stayed bridges instead.

The possibilities to analyze and model the dynamic forces have improved susbtantially during the last few decades. This has increased the popularity of cable-stayed bridges over suspension ones. In 1960's, the economical limit of a c-s bridge was about 250 meters of the main span width. Nowadays, the longest such bridges have a main span exceeding 1000 meters. Longer spans are an exclusive domain of suspension bridges.

A suspension bridge is quite an expensive construction. In addition, the deck of a suspension bridge is usually flexible, therefore being subject to steel fatigue in the long run. The flexibility has another implication, too: A suspension bridge seldom is suitable for a railroad. Trains are heavy and their dynamic loads are difficult to manage. This design point is well visible e.g. on the E20: The Öresundsbron between Sweden and Denmark is a cable-stayed combo bridge for cars and trains. Its main span is 490 meters. The Storebælt east bridge connecting the Danish islands has the main span of 1624 meters. It is a suspension bridge for road traffic only: The railway runs in a submarine tunnel.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 05:14 PM   #5023
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A suspension bridge achieves longer spans relative to tower height.

For example, the Russky Bridge (a cable-stayed bridge with an 1104 m span) has 321 meter high towers. The Minami Bisan-Seto Bridge (a suspension bridge with an 1100 m span) has 194 meter high towers.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:37 PM   #5024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
Fosskolltunnelen outside of Drammen is a triple-tube tunnel. I can't think of any others right now though.
There is apperently one more (127 m long) in Stavanger (Hillesvågsveien), although this a covered road and not a rock tunnel:
https://kart.gulesider.no/m/LCqyn

The third one (Bømlafjordtunnelen) must have been entered in error, as that tunnel is clearly single tube. This should not affect the tube length statistics, however, as the tunnel only have one tube entry in the database.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #5025
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What about the Karmøy Tunnel? It has 3 branches.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:52 PM   #5026
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There are way more than 3 tunnels with three separate branches in Norway.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:58 PM   #5027
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Norway must update its safety codes for single-bore tunnels.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #5028
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Branching is a different story than separate main tunnel tubes. There are many Norwegian tunnels with underground roundabouts or exit or entry ramps. As these will be registered as "tunnel tubes", it may explain some of the discrepancy (if not all) between the "tunnel tube length" and the "tunnel length" (taking into account those with twin or tripple main tubes).

Underground intersections (roundabouts and ramps etc) are by the way not recommended anymore and require special permission from the Directorate of Public Roads. Lately this was for instance not granted for a projected urban tunnel in Trondheim (Byåstunnelen), such that exit to the north-west shown on the outdated map below, as well as a third potential western exit not indicated, will not be built. (The other exits will also be moved slightly)


On the negative side, this will lead to more traffic and conflicts above ground. On the positive side, this might lead to increased tunnel safety. The road directorate also said no to an application of building the tunnel single tube, which of course is a very good decision as the traffic will be rather high, and the cost in fact only is marginally higher as an evavuation tunnel anyway has to be made.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 07:12 PM   #5029
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Rogfast will get a complete diamond interchange at some 250 meters below sea level. I don't think that has ever been done before? I mean there are some underground ramps, but a complete interchange with no portion ending directly at the surface?

Though the Stockholm Bypass also gets underground interchanges.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 08:28 PM   #5030
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No such interchanges have been constructed previously in Norway, at least. I kind of wonder about the economics of it.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:08 PM   #5031
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Quote:
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No such interchanges have been constructed previously in Norway, at least. I kind of wonder about the economics of it.
And probably not even around the world. There are quite a few underground interchanges around, but I've never heard of an underwater interchange.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:13 PM   #5032
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Quote:
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A suspension bridge achieves longer spans relative to tower height.
That is true and evident. On a suspension bridge, the pylons "just" support the suspension cable anchored in the ground. The pylons of a cable-stayed bridge are the key supporting elements: The higher they are, the better they can carry the load.

In Norway, a suspension bridge is quite a natural choice at wide fjord crossings. The pylons can be positioned at the shoreline. As the fjords typically are hundreds of meters deep, a pylon at the midway to support a cable-stayed bridge is a mission impossible.

From the statics point of view, the total height of the pylons does not count. Instead, the height above the deck does count.

One major difference between these bridge types is interesting: The main span of a suspension bridge needs to be straight or almost straight. A cable-stayed bridge may be curved, and quite many notable bridges have been built.

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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #5033
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And probably not even around the world. There are quite a few underground interchanges around, but I've never heard of an underwater interchange.
Closest you will get is probably the underwater junction in the Finnøy tunnel in Rogland, but of course it is not a highway and at a much smaller scale than Rogfast will be.


Last edited by Galro; October 9th, 2017 at 10:14 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #5034
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At grade junction with crossing flows ? That looks dangerous, a roundabout should have been built
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Old October 9th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #5035
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The side road have very low traffic. It is also very steep (10.2%!) and with only one lane.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:21 AM   #5036
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Above sea level there are more tunnel junctions like this. Not sure how many, but there are 19 so called secondary tubes, but only 15 tunnel roundabouts. (In addition there are 52 ramps). Some of the roundabouts could of course have 4 arms, but most likely there are about 4 secondary tubes with at grade junctions with crossing flows like this one. One example is the side branch of E39 Rosethorntunnelen in Volda. It was built because the people of a small settlement refused to move when the main tunnel was built and the old road was deemed to dangerous/ expensive to be kept open. Most likely, also in the other ~two cases at least one of the branches has very low traffic.

Generally, the risks of tunnels in Norway should not be exaggerated. Statistically tunnels have so far actually shown to be safer than roads in the open. The risk may be higher for single tube tunnels with high traffic, and hence I think the EU tunnel directive is a good thing, which in practice also has opened up for more four lane roads in Norway. The main disadvantage with tunnels are their costs and closures due to maintenance.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 03:10 AM   #5037
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Tromsø centre has a local "ring" in a tunnel system with three roundabouts, that lead to a total of four exits and two parking facilities.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #5038
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Quote:
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No such interchanges have been constructed previously in Norway, at least. I kind of wonder about the economics of it.
Do they actually do benefit-cost ratios for schemes like this? It almost seems like a 'money is no object' approach. Certainly in the UK there are busier junctions ON THE SURFACE that would not be grade separated because it would be considered not cost effective to do so, and that's with costs an order of magnitude lower. Not that I'm saying that is the right approach, of course.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 02:45 PM   #5039
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Do they actually do benefit-cost ratios for schemes like this? It almost seems like a 'money is no object' approach. Certainly in the UK there are busier junctions ON THE SURFACE that would not be grade separated because it would be considered not cost effective to do so, and that's with costs an order of magnitude lower. Not that I'm saying that is the right approach, of course.
Yes, all there project are required to go through a cost–benefit analysis before construction and there many proposed projects that never made it because the cost was too high relative to the benefit. What can be different is what are put into those analysis not to mention that politicians are not required to make decisions that are line with them.

But I think a at grade junctions there would be deemed too unsafe to be built regardless of the cost as it would need to cross two tunnel tubes with two lanes in each directions. We never build highway at grade-junctions like that on the surface either. And a roundabout in the middle of a highway in the middle of such a long tunnel would not be particularly popular either. So I think the only feasible alternative would be to drop the whole exit.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #5040
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Construction update of E-18 Tvedestrand - Arendal. Not the largest pictures though ...








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