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Old September 26th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #861
Occit
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I love the landscapes...
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Old September 26th, 2009, 11:11 PM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kossia View Post
Norway is so beautiful! I want to visit it one day...
I second that.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 02:04 AM   #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katia72 View Post
Since many drivers are members of NAF why not get into a sort of protest ...?
Like they do in France or other countries..?
Because this is not France.

To compliment Kjello0's numbers, it is estimated that Norwegians will pay 715 billion NOK car related taxes and fees during the next decade. That is 84 billion Euros, or 33 000 Euros per car. That would be a fantastic road network, as it only takes 200-300 billion NOK for a motorway network covering southern Norway (see link in my signature).

In the mean time, World economic forum has made another comparison of the world's road standard


It would be fun if we some day can be ahead of either Botswana, Gambia, Azerbajan or Sri Lanka.....
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; September 27th, 2009 at 02:04 PM.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 12:15 PM   #864
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500 billion NOK.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 02:00 PM   #865
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Err, thanks for the correction. Actually it is 715 billion NOK shared among 2.575 million cars, and I have corrected the text above accordingly.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
In the mean time, World economic forum has made another comparison of the world's road standard


It would be fun if we some day can be ahead of either Botswana, Gambia, Azerbajan or Sri Lanka.....
Well, that's not a comparison of the standard. But a opinion poll about how the standard is among the countries top leaders. Meaning the 37 Norwegian top leaders asked mean the norwegian standard is 3,8 on a scale of 1-10. While the 73 top leaders asked in Botswana mean the standard in Botswana is 4,5 on a scale of 1-10.

Faktasjekk.no has checked the claim from Høyres Erna Solberg that claimed Botswana had better roads.
And the fact was that
Norway got 92 946 km of public roads. 72 033 km got asphalt or 77,5%.
Botswana got 25 798 km of public roads. 8 410 km got asphalt or 32,6%.
Norway got 19 meters of road pr inhabitant.
Botswana got 16 meters of road pr inhabitant.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 04:10 PM   #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
Well, that's not a comparison of the standard. But a opinion poll about how the standard is among the countries top leaders. Meaning the 37 Norwegian top leaders asked mean the norwegian standard is 3,8 on a scale of 1-10. While the 73 top leaders asked in Botswana mean the standard in Botswana is 4,5 on a scale of 1-10.

Faktasjekk.no has checked the claim from Høyres Erna Solberg that claimed Botswana had better roads.
And the fact was that
Norway got 92 946 km of public roads. 72 033 km got asphalt or 77,5%.
Botswana got 25 798 km of public roads. 8 410 km got asphalt or 32,6%.
Norway got 19 meters of road pr inhabitant.
Botswana got 16 meters of road pr inhabitant.


Anyway there is not much to boast of the roads in Norway, considering how rich the country is
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Old September 27th, 2009, 04:20 PM   #868
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Maybe it would be easier for Norway to upgrade their road network if they'd join EU. (just a thought)
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Old September 27th, 2009, 05:35 PM   #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
Maybe it would be easier for Norway to upgrade their road network if they'd join EU. (just a thought)
No... we need a Canada..! (where's our Mexico?)
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Old September 27th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
Well, that's not a comparison of the standard. But a opinion poll about how the standard is among the countries top leaders. Meaning the 37 Norwegian top leaders asked mean the norwegian standard is 3,8 on a scale of 1-10. While the 73 top leaders asked in Botswana mean the standard in Botswana is 4,5 on a scale of 1-10.

Faktasjekk.no has checked the claim from Høyres Erna Solberg that claimed Botswana had better roads.
And the fact was that
Norway got 92 946 km of public roads. 72 033 km got asphalt or 77,5%.
Botswana got 25 798 km of public roads. 8 410 km got asphalt or 32,6%.
Norway got 19 meters of road pr inhabitant.
Botswana got 16 meters of road pr inh abitant.
Perhaps, but road lengths do not really say anything about standard. In any case, a more relevant fact would be:
  • Norway has 2 575 000 vehicles => 36 m road / 28 m paved road per vehicle
  • Botswana has 1 990 876 people / 57 vehicles per 1000 => 113 000 vehicles total =>
    227 m road / 74 m paved road per vehicle

and (less relevant for the question at hand, I would admit, but still interesting) (from CIA factbook):
  • Norway's GDP is 481 billion USD => 193 m road / 150 m paved road per million GDP in USD
  • Botswana's GDP is 14 billion USD => 1842 m road / 601 m paved road per million GDP in USD

Botswana rural higway:


Norwegian rural european highways:


Never trust a fact check of a Norwegian newspaper (in this case Bergens Tidende), I would say....

OK, I know I have not proven that Norwegian highways generally are worse than Botswana's, but the world economic forum survey is everything we got, afaik. I have heard some people with first hand experience claiming that Botswana's highways indeed are better, and the mere fact that we are discussing this issue is quite incredible!
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; September 28th, 2009 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Pictures added
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Old September 29th, 2009, 01:10 AM   #871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
OK, I know I have not proven that Norwegian highways generally are worse than Botswana's, but the world economic forum survey is everything we got, afaik. I have heard some people with first hand experience claiming that Botswana's highways indeed are better, and the mere fact that we are discussing this issue is quite incredible!
Again, the World economic forum survey is only a opinion poll among the top leaders in the countries. And as citizens of the richest country in the world Norwegian top leader will always have higher expectations of what's a good road standard. And in that way rate their country's standard compared to other rich countries. While a poor country like Botswana will compare their standard against other poor countries.

We could also use these pictures.
Botswana National road


E 18


No matter how you put it, Norway got a higher standard on it's roads than several of the countries infront of us on that survey. It's just that we expect more as we are so much richer.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 11:50 AM   #872
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Of course there is some subjectivity in any survey, proven by the fact that Norway fell quite a few places in just one year. However, top leaders generally travels a lot, and are dependent on transport for their bussiness, and hence are more likely to achieve an objective assessment than most other people.

Personally, I have never been to Botswana, and cannot say anything definite about the standard there compared with Norway, but the statistics I showed above, this survey, and highway pictures I have seen from the country indeed indicate that the Norwegian highways are worse or at best on pair with those of Botswana. kjetilab seems to have been in Botswana, maybe he has a more qualified opinion?

In any case, I have been in some other developing countries which have better roads than Norway, and repeated studies of average transportation times, kms of motorways etc. put us on the bottom in Europe in terms of road standard. The fact that we indeed are discussing whether Norway, one of the very riches countries of the world, or Botswana, one of the poorest, has the worst road network is quite incredible, but on this I think we agree....

BTW, from what I gather from the site you took your picture, it is from the Botswana side of the border close to Stockpoort in Limpopo, SA. This is not a national road, in fact, it is not even shown on google maps (but appears in the satelite images). I will not expect a road not showing up on the map to be comparable to a European highway. There are quite a few (narrower) gravel county roads left also in Norway.. The only Botswanian national road nearby is paved.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 10:45 PM   #873
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First motorway stretch on E6 Gardermoen - Biri opened today.
Skaberud - Kolomoen is a 12,7 km short stretch south of Rv 3 exit at Kolomoen.

The stretch don't use traditional road lights. But a new led light system. The led lights won't light up the whole road like traditional lights does, and hence car lights is needed. However, they are disigned so they change from white to red when a car i driving in the wrong direction. This is supposed to make drivers realize that they are driving against traffic. Personally I doubt it will have much effect. Drivers that got so low attention that they don't realize that they are driving on the left side of the road, or that it was a stop sign at the exit will probably not realize that lights change from white to red.
I do actually think it will have an negative effect as the led lights don't light up the whole road.

The new lights

Last edited by Kjello0; October 1st, 2009 at 10:54 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 02:50 AM   #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
First motorway stretch on E6 Gardermoen - Biri opened today.
Skaberud - Kolomoen is a 12,7 km short stretch south of Rv 3 exit at Kolomoen.

The stretch don't use traditional road lights. But a new led light system. The led lights won't light up the whole road like traditional lights does, and hence car lights is needed. However, they are disigned so they change from white to red when a car i driving in the wrong direction. This is supposed to make drivers realize that they are driving against traffic. Personally I doubt it will have much effect. Drivers that got so low attention that they don't realize that they are driving on the left side of the road, or that it was a stop sign at the exit will probably not realize that lights change from white to red.
I do actually think it will have an negative effect as the led lights don't light up the whole road.

The new lights
Interesting... Roadlights on motorways have kind of been our "thing" here in Norway. I think they play an not insignificant part in telling drivers that "it's not dark" and "you're not supposed to sleep" (unconsciously), plus they have clear effects on how fast you see animals in the road (take a peek at Swedish roads, and you get it). Don't know if this is just another way to "save the environment", but I don't like it... As if Norway isn't overflooded with renewable electricity as it is.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 02:26 PM   #875
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Roadlights on motorways is a big waste of money, these roads even have fences to keep larger animals from entering. And they don't keep you from sleeping, in fact they are WORSE. Working as a Halden Taxi-driver, i have driven a lot at night on both Norwegian and Swedish rural E6-motorways Only when there is a lot of fog are these lights at aid, those new pearl-rand lights will probably work just as good. But keeping retards from driving the wrong way? Probably not.... They could instead use spikestrips on those suckers
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 01:53 AM   #876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Roadlights on motorways is a big waste of money, these roads even have fences to keep larger animals from entering. And they don't keep you from sleeping, in fact they are WORSE. Working as a Halden Taxi-driver, i have driven a lot at night on both Norwegian and Swedish rural E6-motorways Only when there is a lot of fog are these lights at aid, those new pearl-rand lights will probably work just as good. But keeping retards from driving the wrong way? Probably not.... They could instead use spikestrips on those suckers

I totally agree, I prefer to drive on motorways without roadlights.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 03:14 AM   #877
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Keep lighting the road with regular lightpoles, but do it with white lights (LEDs or something), to break up that awful orange mush the current lights give. That will be more eco-friendly, give out less light-polution, and still keep roads light enough so you can see medium sized animals (like badgers) and other stuff in the road. That's my honest opinion.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 07:00 PM   #878
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I read this comment in Aftenposten today (only on paper), about a book written by an American travel journalist Bayard Taylor in 1857. Here are some quotes from the book, which now has been translated to Norwegian for the first time:

Quote:
I forhold til folketall og ressurser har Norge gjort mer når det gjelder veiutbygging enn noe annet land i verden. Ikke bare de store hovedveiene, men også sideveiene vitner om forbausende dyktighet, fagkunnskap og iherdighet
This is a truly interesting perspective to use in a Norwegian infrastructure debate that has been more or less overshadowed by arguements such as "there are too many fjords and mountains" and the classic "the soil conditions are too hard to work with".
This is maybe not the best source to use, but obviously something was seriously different in the pre-car days.

Quote:
Det slår en som en enestående selvmotsigelse å finne slike tegn til høy sivilsasjon her, når en ser hvilke barbariske forhold innbyggerne lever under. Vanligvis står utviklingen innen samferdsel i et land i forhold til landets sosiale utvikling
I don't know if I should laugh or cry...
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Old October 8th, 2009, 04:35 PM   #879
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Video shown in the trucking topic. This illustrates the problems of major truck traffic on too narrow Norwegian roads. Maybe a Norwegian can give a short summary of what's said here?

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Old October 8th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #880
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Thanks for the video - very funny, that must be the worst regional road we have
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