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Old November 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM   #921
Gsus
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Thanks 54°26′S 3°24′E!

I think/hope Statens vegvesen sees a little further than they used to now that they more or less gives a damn in funding from the government, and use loan from banks instead to get the roads built. But as the report says, the wide median is because they want the opportunity to put signs there, and that makes me think they maybe looks a little further than they use to. Why signs in the middle of a 2-laner?

For the 10m section, I'm also afraid there will be a lot of accidents even though the "midtfelt" has had some good effects.

I hope that there will come a test section sometime in the future with a width of maybe 11-12 meters (1-3,5-2(3)-3,5-1), with a very wide "midtfelt" instead of barrier. The reason for a test section would be to see how Norwegian drivers with a little bit to much self confidence won't use the midtfelt for passing even with traffic coming ahead.

The roundabout is planned for a possible later rebuilding to grade-separated intersection, but it would be stupid not building the the later when they're already building an intersection. My hope is that Rv.25 will be going through, and Rv.3 off since 2/3 of the traffic from Løten goes in to Elverum.

Last edited by Gsus; November 3rd, 2009 at 06:46 PM.
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Old November 3rd, 2009, 11:16 PM   #922
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AFAIK a minority of the meeting / head on accidents are caused by passing, but due to the fact that a driver looses control of his vehicle, either due to the driver's (sickness, drugs/alcohol, sleep deprevation etc), vehicle (mechanical fault, tyres etc) or surface conditions. In most cases a physical barrier is so much better.

What vegvesenet has to say about this is in fact quite shocking:
Quote:
Beregningene tilsier at det trolig vil være samfunnsøkonomisk lønnsomt å bygge strekningen med S5-standard med fartsgrense 90 km/t istedenfor S4-standard med fartsgrense 80 km/t, forutsatt at man ikke bygger 2-planskryss ved Grundsetmoen. Dette er imidlertid er et krav til S5-veger i hht. håndbok 017, dvs. det må evt. søkes om fravik fra vegnormalene både på standardvalg og krysstype. Prosessen endte ut med en anbefaling om å legge dimensjoneringsklasse S4 til grunn for det videre planarbeidet.
In layman terms (and English):
They say that, yes, they know that a barrier will reduce accidents to such a degree that building a barrier would be better in economical terms for the society, but because this means that they have to apply for an exception to the central government they will not do it. What happened to common sense? And consiousness?

Regarding the roundabout, it is my understanding from the "forstudie" that there is not enough room to build a grade separated intersection at the location they plan the roundabout:

At least they say it will be difficult, probably because the area around is planned for industrial development? Anyway, as you say, "rebuilding the intersection later" is a very expensive solution which the government seems to love.

It's true that the majority of the vehicles go to Elverum (i.e. east) today, but most of the heavy traffic goes northwards, and if they have to take off they have to break down a bit which will cause uneccessary pollution. The cars going towards Elverum has to break down anyway since the planned speed limit is 60 km/h there. It should further be noted that the traffic split between the two roads may change considerably in the future. First, Elverum wants rv 25 to go around the city to the north, which would add around 4000 cars to the northern arm of this interesection. However, if the Norwegian government, some time post 2013, decide that they want to do something with the excessive pollution caused by air traffic, i.e. build a proper ground transportation network in Norway, the traffic going north may increase significantly compared with the traffic going east. The reason is that most people traveling Trondheim-Oslo today is flying. However, the orientation of the grade separated intererchange is a rather minor issue IMO, and also depends on what kind of geometry they choose for the ramps.

There is by the way also planned a roundabout where rv 25 from the west (Hamar) and rv 3 from the southwest meet. In addition, the intersection between the new and old rv 3 to the north of Elverum is planned as a T-intesection. Hence, the road planners plan no less than 3 intersections without grade separation on the new rv 3! The rv 25 going towards Elverum will as Gsus said have four lanes, but will not have a barrier fence and will have a couple of roundabouts and 60 km/h speed limit. However, this is natural as the road goes through more urban areas.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; November 4th, 2009 at 02:47 PM.
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Old November 4th, 2009, 04:30 PM   #923
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If vegvesenet plans too relocate the E6 to Østerdalen (which I hope), I agree that Rv.3 should go strait ahead i that intersection. There are four alternatives for this intersection:
*Roundabout as the map 54°26′S 3°24′E shows at Åskroken.
*Roundabout located on Rundhaugen, where the map shows grade separation.
*Grade separated intersection with Rv.3 strait ahead.
*Grade separated intersection with Rv.25 heading strait.

The reason for the roundabout in Løten is that it's not decided how an future Rv.25 from Hamar will meet Rv.3. So that roundabout is hopefully just temporary.

The 16m road without central barrier in Elverum, will just go from one roundabout to another inside Elverum urban area. The further section out to the intersection with Rv.3 will be 20,5m with barrier in the middle.

Over to something else: I've been looking at E18 Mosseveien south of Oslo on Google Earth. The road seems too be about 13 meters wide, with three lanes from Mastemyr to Vinterbru. The road is supposed too get a central barrier soon, but when/if the Mosseveien tunnel is built, an expanding too four lanes will probably force it's way through all the way down to Vinterbru.

The first things I'm thinking about is two alternatives:
* Cheap alternative: Expanding the existing road to 16m 2+2 road, with a steel-barrier in the middle. All lanes open to all kind of traffic. E6 is still the main road to Oslo. Speed limit 70-80km/h. Will probably require a couple of new bridges, and the side terrain needs too be done something with.
* Expensive alternative: Expand to total six lanes, with one bus lane in each direction. Speed limit 90-100km/h. The emergency lanes between Mastemyr and Fiskevollbukta can be used as bus lanes, which will give the buses separated traffic all the way from Vinterbru to Bjørvika.

Anyone got some ideas?
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Old November 4th, 2009, 08:12 PM   #924
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I don't care for Mosseveien, i would rather see them make Ryencrossing gradefree and add another lane from the Nøstvedttunnelen to Ryen instead
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Old November 4th, 2009, 08:50 PM   #925
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
I don't care for Mosseveien, i would rather see them make Ryencrossing gradefree and add another lane from the Nøstvedttunnelen to Ryen instead
I fully agree with you that something needs to be done at Ryen, and that E6 should get a third lane in each direction from Oppegård, but Mosseveien will still be the fastest road for everyone coming from the south. And if the tunnel from Fiskevollbukta to Bjørvika is built, this road will become more attractive for many. An good alternative route for E6 if closed is also a good arguement i think, and theres probably no buildings near Mosseveien on this section that will have to be demolished, or needing extra noise-isolation.

Does anyone know the average daily traffic on E18-Mosseveien and E6 south, or if this information is somewhere on the net?
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Old November 4th, 2009, 09:14 PM   #926
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This mean that on new roads the goverment only spends 4-4,5 billion NOK on road building.
With roadtolls the total investments is about 10-12 billion each year.
Allmost all the increased money spent on roads the government is bragging about comes from extra roadtolls.
It's diifficult today to get financing for a big motorway project if you expect the state to pay more than 40% of the bills, especially close to the biggest cities.
At least in the Bergen-area it looks like we can expect the constructionstart of Svegatjørn-Rådal next year after 30 years of talk.

The NTP 2010-2019 have some big projects for the Bergen-area coming up:
-Bergensprogram continues(ringroad west and light-rail)
-Svegatjørn-Rådal motorway
-Sotra-Bergen with a new four line bridge and motorway.
-Nyborgtunnels (four-line motorway)

When this is finished maybe be finally can make som holes in Ulriken and a new E16 to the east as well.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsus View Post
Does anyone know the average daily traffic on E18-Mosseveien and E6 south, or if this information is somewhere on the net?
http://viskart.vegvesen.no/

Regarding Mosseveien, I think the main problem is the capacity of the Bjørvika tunnels. That is why the new E18 Mosseveien tunnel will not have much increased capacity compared with the current road (as far as I remember).
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Old November 5th, 2009, 04:35 PM   #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
http://viskart.vegvesen.no/

Regarding Mosseveien, I think the main problem is the capacity of the Bjørvika tunnels. That is why the new E18 Mosseveien tunnel will not have much increased capacity compared with the current road (as far as I remember).
Is it decided how many lanes the tunnel will get? Theres not much about the project on the web, but I saw the word "miljøtunnel" in several articles in different Oslo papers. I'm guessing bus-lanes in each direction is planned, but I can't find anything regarding one or two lanes for cars and trucks in each direction?

Let's anyway hope for a new 2+2 road on Rv.23 between Røyken and Drammen, a new road from Røyken to Asker with central-barrier, and maybe a diagonal between Rv.23's intersection with E6 and E18 to Østfold/Sweden, so this route will become even more attractive for especially trucks.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 04:51 PM   #929
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Mosseveien will get a 2+2 tunnel, where one of each are bus lanes, so in practice 1+1. Bjørvikatunnelen, with it's 3+3, won't allow a 2+2 Mosseveien go into it. It's not planed for it, and Statens Vegvesen won't allow it.
I don't think we will see Mosseveien changed in any ways between Mastemyr and Vinterbro for a loong time, if ever. It will certainly not be a motorway, and that's really fine by me. As long as it's kept as a main way from the south to Oslo vest and Oslo downtown, and not rerouted as Ingenioren suggests, I'm also fine about it. The train is the best way to commute this way, and that will be a 2+2 very soon here. The road network in the Oslo-region should be so that E18 is not an option for the passing traffic. Rv 23, E6 and E16 should all be made so people coming from the south (Sweden, Europe), would be much better off going avoiding the city when heading towards Kristiansand/Drammen/Bergen/Trondheim or wherever.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 07:00 PM   #930
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Mosseveien will get a 2+2 tunnel, where one of each are bus lanes, so in practice 1+1. Bjørvikatunnelen, with it's 3+3, won't allow a 2+2 Mosseveien go into it. It's not planed for it, and Statens Vegvesen won't allow it.
I don't think we will see Mosseveien changed in any ways between Mastemyr and Vinterbro for a loong time, if ever. It will certainly not be a motorway, and that's really fine by me. As long as it's kept as a main way from the south to Oslo vest and Oslo downtown, and not rerouted as Ingenioren suggests, I'm also fine about it. The train is the best way to commute this way, and that will be a 2+2 very soon here. The road network in the Oslo-region should be so that E18 is not an option for the passing traffic. Rv 23, E6 and E16 should all be made so people coming from the south (Sweden, Europe), would be much better off going avoiding the city when heading towards Kristiansand/Drammen/Bergen/Trondheim or wherever.
Sound fair to keep Mosseveien as it is and use the short motorway stretch in Oppegård to make the bus-lanes longer, when an capacity increase isn't planned. Let's hope they realize that six lanes will be needed from Oppgård to Ryen in the future, combined with a new intersection at Ryen before the stretch get too cramped.

And regarding the railway. Do we dare to hope for this a faster rebuilding of Østfoldbanen? Every politician is saying nice words about trains, but nothing really happens. The NTP really just consist of the plans from the old one, and not much new. The railroads is just a complete mess, and at least the IC-network should have had completed double track yesterday too take more freight and give the passengers faster and more reliable connections.

http://www.moss-avis.no/article/2009...YHET/987602461

Maybe this will make a light in the end of the tunnel? The voting is over for this time, so it should be something in it, but I would'nt be too optimistic.

BTW... Do we have a railway thread for Norway her on SC?
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Old November 5th, 2009, 07:51 PM   #931
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Quote:
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Sound fair to keep Mosseveien as it is and use the short motorway stretch in Oppegård to make the bus-lanes longer, when an capacity increase isn't planned. Let's hope they realize that six lanes will be needed from Oppgård to Ryen in the future, combined with a new intersection at Ryen before the stretch get too cramped.

And regarding the railway. Do we dare to hope for this a faster rebuilding of Østfoldbanen? Every politician is saying nice words about trains, but nothing really happens. The NTP really just consist of the plans from the old one, and not much new. The railroads is just a complete mess, and at least the IC-network should have had completed double track yesterday too take more freight and give the passengers faster and more reliable connections.

http://www.moss-avis.no/article/2009...YHET/987602461

Maybe this will make a light in the end of the tunnel? The voting is over for this time, so it should be something in it, but I would'nt be too optimistic.

BTW... Do we have a railway thread for Norway her on SC?
There is already plans for making the short stretch of motorway north of Mastemyr into 2+2 roads whereof 1+1 bus. I think this will come at the same time as the new barriers next year.

Østfoldbanen takes time, and that's just what one have to deal with, apparantly. Oslo-Ski will hopefully be ready in 2018, and I wouldn't get my hopes up for the rest before that part is done.

And to your other question, actually we don't have a Norwegian railways thread (at least not that I know off. Don't use Railways in the world forums that much). In the N&B we have "Nordic & Baltic Infrastructure - Links & Megathread", that kind of covers everything + we made a thread called "Political majority for High Speed Trains in Norway", after Stortinget deicided on this issue earlier this summer. I guess we can rename the last one to be a bit more general about the subject.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #932
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When this is finished maybe be finally can make som holes in Ulriken and a new E16 to the east as well.
Without ever have driven in Bergen myself, I actually hopes for a four-lane ringvei-øst and central-barrier/four-laner from Indre Arna to Åsane instead. I think the railway deserves it's second tube, and the time advantage on that section. And as I've understood, the Nygaardstangen intersection and Danmarksplass (may be replaced with a tunnel?) is some extreme bottlenecks that may collapse during rush-hour with the Arna tunnel coming in there too. Though it will take longer time to get around the mountain than through it for many, I also think it may be better for the air in Bergen sentrum, and make growth in the boroughs south-south/east of Bergen, when communication gets better.
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Old November 6th, 2009, 12:08 AM   #933
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The people living along the current E16 may not agree with you...
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Old November 6th, 2009, 10:30 AM   #934
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The people living along the current E16 may not agree with you...
No matter what alternative gets built, there will allways be loosers (and winners). No alternative is a good alternative for everyone, and having a train connection that will be a step ahead of the road, is a good thing. Makes more people going to Bergen sentrum consider rail transport instead of the traditional "matpakkekjøring". Build a large parkinghouse at Arna station together with ringvei øst!... Thats my sugestion
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Old November 6th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #935
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Arnatunnel


I know there is talk of a "Ringvei øst" but that to will allso lead to more traffic thru Åsane and Sandviken to Bergen sentrum, and if something happens in the fløifjellet tunnels(as often happens) it will be full stop.
With the Ulriken tunnels you allso have a good second option to sentrum from north. It should allso be possible building a huge parking-house inside the fløifjellet mountains, there is lots of space so that you can just walk out to the city without having to take your car with you driving around looking for parking space in sentrum.
I think the local trains will do fine anyways as a new tunnel will have to be paid for with a second roadtoll and population growth in Arna. The Osterøy bridge was allso planned with these tunnels in mind.
Just a new Arnatunnel will take 20min off the traveltime to the east on E16. I'm sure they will have to build it sooner or later.
Something will allso have to be done to the Danmarksplass crossing putting the maintraffic on E39 under the crossing leaving Danmarksplass for localtraffic, pedestrians and bybanen.
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Old November 6th, 2009, 08:03 PM   #936
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I know there is talk of a "Ringvei øst" but that to will allso lead to more traffic thru Åsane and Sandviken to Bergen sentrum, and if something happens in the fløifjellet tunnels(as often happens) it will be full stop.
With the Ulriken tunnels you allso have a good second option to sentrum from north. It should allso be possible building a huge parking-house inside the fløifjellet mountains, there is lots of space so that you can just walk out to the city without having to take your car with you driving around looking for parking space in sentrum.
I think the local trains will do fine anyways as a new tunnel will have to be paid for with a second roadtoll and population growth in Arna. The Osterøy bridge was allso planned with these tunnels in mind.
Just a new Arnatunnel will take 20min off the traveltime to the east on E16. I'm sure they will have to build it sooner or later.
Something will allso have to be done to the Danmarksplass crossing putting the maintraffic on E39 under the crossing leaving Danmarksplass for localtraffic, pedestrians and bybanen.
Where do you think the Arna tunnel should end in Bergen then? Not a good option too merge it with the Ulriken tunnel from what you're saying then?

How does Danmarksplass look like now that bybanen is soon finished?
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Old November 15th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #937
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Trondheim - Sluppen

From Bergen to Trondheim:

The by far most important - and problematic - area in the Trondheim traffic is Sluppen:
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Old November 15th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #938
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The picture in the previous post was shot facing south. The main arteria is the E6 coming from the southern suburbs and beyond, in Sluppen sluppen the E6 split in one arm going towards the city center (i.e. towards north / the phographer) and one arm going around the city (towards north/east at the bottom left. In addition, this is were rv 715, comes across the river on the infamous Sluppen bridge to connect to E6. Rv 715 is the main road for traffic coming the other side of the fjord (Fosen), but most of the traffic comes from the western suburbs of Trondheim (Byåsen). There is no other option for cars going east / west between this bridge and downtown several kms to the north. In addition to E6 and Rv 715, there are quite a few other roads coming to this area.

The two main problems of the area is quite evident in the picture shown above:[list][*]The Sluppen bridge (small bridge across river to the right) and sourrounding infrastructure is insufficient[*]For traffic coming from the bypass E6 the single lane ramp for traffic going towards the south is under capacity.

Below is sketch of the current situation with traffic numbers from 2007 and with circles around the problematic areas. Since 2007 the population of Trondheim has increased by almost 6 %. For some reason north is to the left on this map:

The Sluppen bridge was built as a temporary bridge substutiting another temporary bridge (?) as far back as 1954, and is only 6 m wide. At the east bank there is a bend so sharp that trucks and buses needs both lanes in order to enter the bridge. At the other end there is a traffic light, and add a lot of bicycles to this mix and you have serious traffic problem:

The road system on the west bank (Byåsen) side is not ideal either, and the result is many people make huge detours today in order to avoid the worst areas and times.

Hopefully, this will change to the better in a few years, at least there are now some plans on the table for new solutions and their financing (100 % toll, of course...)

The overall planned and U/C main road system of Trondheim is shown below:

The existing bypass E6 is shown in blue. Yellow and red roads are existing or U/C. The white road is the new planned Sluppen bridge and a refurbished road at the west bank. In addition, a four lane tunnel up to the Byåsen suburbs are planned. A more detailed / bigger map can be found here:
http://www.vegvesen.no/binary?id=171301

The alternatives currently considered will be given below. Yellow is new / modified road, green colors are for bikes / pedestrians.
Alternative 0+

This alternative just means that there will only be built a slightly widened and realigned Sluppen bridge and building a new roundabout. No solution for connecting the new Byåsen tunnel to the system.
Alternative 1

Here the new sluppen bridge is widened to four lanes, and the bridge is moved down the river a bit and a roundabout at the west bank connects the new bridge to the tunnel and the north-south road (Oslovegen) on the west bank. No lanes added to the single lane E6 ramp, but traffic from Sluppen going towards downtown are realigned.
Alternative 2a

Here also Oslo-vegen on the west bank will be four lanes, and through traffic on that road will be grade separated from the Sluppen bridge traffic. In addition all ramps on the E6 have at least two lanes. This is IMO the first solution that will fix most of the current problems. Notice also that the new bike route system is far better.
Alternative 2b

More or less the same as alternative 2a, except the through way of E6 is changed from the branch going into the city to the bypass branch.
Alternative 3

This alternative is fairly similar to 2a, except that the E6 goes down through a tunnel. As drawn here the E6-E6 interchange will have three levels. The alternative was suggested by the city in order to increase the area available for commercial development. In addition, this alternative keep the south/west road on the western bank (Oslovegen) as a two lane road, but keep the grade separation. In addition some ramps on the existing interestion on the bypass E6 in the NE corner of the map will be closed.

It will be exciting to see what the end result of this will be. Hopefully they will not be so short-sighted this time that they end up with alternative 0+ or 1, that wont solve anything in the long run. Also, I think there should be four lanes on the west bank road, as there is more than enough room since the houses close to that road anyway will be / has been demolished. Also other aspects of alternative 3 is suboptimal IMO. More area may be open for development, but that will also make future amendments to the system more difficult.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 04:00 AM   #939
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I wouldn't at all be surprised if they choose alternative 1. I would actually be by far more surprised if they actually choose alternative 2a which is by far the best solution of these. However, if Osloveien had four lanes on alternative 3 I would go for that instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
The overall planned and U/C main road system of Trondheim is shown below:

The existing bypass E6 is shown in blue. Yellow and red roads are existing or U/C. The white road is the new planned Sluppen bridge and a refurbished road at the west bank. In addition, a four lane tunnel up to the Byåsen suburbs are planned. A more detailed / bigger map can be found here:
http://www.vegvesen.no/binary?id=171301
When will Norwegian politicans ever show some ambitions?
A big amount of the parts U/C is already outdated. So is the existing E 6 bypass. But no plans of upgrading it or building a new bypass.

The problems in Trondheim won't be fully solved before we got this network.
A new E 6 bypass east of the city.
The current E 6 upgraded to motorway standard the whole stretch.
Blue means 8 lane road.
Green means 6 lane road.
Red means 4 lane road.
Orange means two lane road.

Last edited by Kjello0; November 15th, 2009 at 04:25 AM. Reason: Old picture
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Old November 15th, 2009, 04:16 PM   #940
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Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
When will Norwegian politicans ever show some ambitions?
A big amount of the parts U/C is already outdated. So is the existing E 6 bypass. But no plans of upgrading it or building a new bypass.
The contractor actually offered to build the harbor tunnel with four lanes at an additional cost when the revised models showed that the road will be under capacity at the opening day (surprise, surprise). The additional cost for a doubling of the tunnel was 25 %, AFAIK. However, the offer was not accepted. Building a new tunnel later will probably come at least as much as the first tunnel.

The new traffic figures were released before the planning of the new Osloveien tunnel was completed. Hence they decided to build a parallell evacuation tunnel there. Why not double it at a minimum increase of cost?

It seems like the city and the government rather would like the jams along densely populated Elgeseter and Ila should continue indefinitely....

PS: I am not sure whether the transit traffic through Trondheim require a new outer ring road. I guess it depends a little on where the new freight terminal ends up.
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Norway needs a new transport infrastructure network, let's start now!

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; November 15th, 2009 at 04:21 PM.
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