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Old March 12th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #1261
MKA123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
The argument that something works fine, why replace it could be applied for almost everything that has been supplanted by better technology. Propellor planes were fine, why use jets? Big fat tv's from the 90's are fine, why do we need thinner ones? Candle light works fine, why replace them with electric light bulbs?

I don't buy the argument. White boards are easier to see what is written, easier to clean, doesn't have all that yucky dust flying everywhere, etc... It is a new piece of technology that is more efficient and frankly better than the older technology.
For instance: Most people I know didn't buy new, thinner TVs at once when they became avilable in stores. They bought it when they needed a new TV.

Easier to see? Well, that depends on how good the pen used is. Most of the pens the teachers uses are bad ones...
Easier to clean? Yes, that's correct (unless you use your hand to clean it, but even that works better than cleaning white chalk with your hand...)
And, yes you're right about that you don't have dust with that.

But another problem with white boards is the use of permanent markers on it. Yes, I know you can erase even that - but not all teacher knows that.
But yes, you're right: White boards are better than black/green boards. But that's not the largest problem in Norwegian schools. New schools are build almost continuous, and there, I think, only white boards are used. So, when all schools are upgraded or rebuilt, there are only white boards used. But I see the point that you could buy new boards now, and then move them to the new school when that one is built. Yes, I agree - but as I said earlier I really think other stuff are more important to change in Norwegian schools.

But if you got the money, I don't see it as bad to remove the black/green boards and put in new white boards. But if that does it necessary to fire a teacher (and that's the reality in a lot of Norwegian municipalities), I see it as wrong.

Back to the topic:

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Originally Posted by IceCheese View Post
Bad bad bad bad Not to sound cold hearted, but I'd imagine the cost to the society by increasing travel time on large stretches by 12,5 %, is far much higher than just 10-15 deaths or serious injuries (D/SI). "10-15" is also within the statistical error of injury data, and it will be impossible to meassure the affect of this mean.

But this doesn't matter! The Norwegian Storting has made a legal decission that we shall have none deaths or serious injuries on Norwegian roads what so ever!!! Utopia, here we come!
I don't agree. With the reduced costs (economic and non-economic) I think it will go in "0". And when it goes in "0", I think the best is to save someone's life. But the thing I'm afraid of is that this will reduce the focus on building new roads. Let's just hope it doesn't...

I haven't read "nullvisjonen" ("zero deaths and zero seriously injured"), but I don't think they necessarily mean that there should be no deads and seriously injured one the roads at all. I think they mean that the traffic system should not "kill" anyone. F.i. you still have those who uses the road to commit suicide. Sad enough, it's hard to prevent that.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 12:49 PM   #1262
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The project that will investigate the possibilities of a E39 without any ferries is "officially" started:
http://www.vegvesen.no/Vegprosjekter/ferjefriE39
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Old March 12th, 2011, 01:08 PM   #1263
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Best road-project ever



I did think an extended Kvivsvegen would mean Voldafjord-crossing and Nordfjord-crossing were no longer necessary...
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Old March 12th, 2011, 02:10 PM   #1264
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Best road-project ever



I did think an extended Kvivsvegen would mean Voldafjord-crossing and Nordfjord-crossing were no longer necessary...
The thought of how much it will cost in tolls from Stavanger to Trondheim scares the living daylights out of me!
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Old March 12th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #1265
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Sure, but you are today paying for ferries so i guess they will adjust downpayment period so that the fares doesn't increase compared to ferry tickets price.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 02:31 PM   #1266
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Sure, but you are today paying for ferries so i guess they will adjust downpayment period so that the fares doesn't increase compared to ferry tickets price.
What about the 19 year old village boy who didn't finish school? What will he do for work without the ferries? :-)
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Old March 12th, 2011, 02:32 PM   #1267
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Sure, but you are today paying for ferries so i guess they will adjust downpayment period so that the fares doesn't increase compared to ferry tickets price.
How about the government take more than 1 or 2 percent of the oil fund, to pay for the road, so people don't have to pay any tolls?
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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #1268
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What about the 19 year old village boy who didn't finish school? What will he do for work without the ferries? :-)
Maybe he can peel bananas
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Old March 14th, 2011, 02:05 PM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
I agree with you that we should move E39 further west than it is now, there is also an alternative that is 20 years old via Sollund:
They should just keep it as it is. The road from Bergen to Lavik-Oppdedal are getting better, and they have started on new projects on the other side of the Sognefjord as well. Rerouting it further west will mean lots of new expensive roadprojects on each side of the fjord.
The total cost of rerouting it will probably be much higher than a future suspension bridge at the current location and who knows what new technologies may come forward in the next 20-30 years. This fjordcrossing will probably be the last of the "big ones" anyway.

Last edited by Hansadyret; March 14th, 2011 at 02:16 PM.
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Old March 14th, 2011, 02:26 PM   #1270
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Uhm, a 3.7 km span is almost double the current longest span for a suspension bridge. The bridge towers would need to be incredibly high.
Around 400m high bridgetowers is needed I've heard.
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Old March 15th, 2011, 02:16 AM   #1271
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Autobahn isn’t safer

[QUOTE=JeremyCastle;74084698]
The stats I've seen show that Germany has an equal or better road accident level than Norway. Can anyone confirm this? Also, here is an article (in Norwegian) that I have that shows that increasing speed limits in Denmark and Sweden DID NOT increase the number of accidents. http://www.ha-halden.no/motor/article5375313.ece (Google Chrome automatically translates it into any major language you want.)

QUOTE]

No, I don’t think anyone can. No stats I have seen prove that (and I have seen a few). People shouldn’t confuse the different between accidents numbers and accident severity either. While the accident severity is on its way down in Norway (last year we had the fewest fatalities on Norwegian roads since 1955), the accident numbers are in fact rather constant. Of course, that the accident numbers is constant doesn’t say that the number of accidents isn’t going down statistically (the are going down to since the volume of traffic is rising). Apart from that, it’s very complicated to compare Norwegian and German stats, Norway has a small motorway network with mostly moderate traffic, while Germany has a large and heavy trafficked system.

http://www.etsc.eu/map-of-europe/?country=Norway
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Old March 15th, 2011, 01:43 PM   #1272
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Originally Posted by Hansadyret View Post
They should just keep it as it is. The road from Bergen to Lavik-Oppdedal are getting better, and they have started on new projects on the other side of the Sognefjord as well. Rerouting it further west will mean lots of new expensive roadprojects on each side of the fjord.
The total cost of rerouting it will probably be much higher than a future suspension bridge at the current location and who knows what new technologies may come forward in the next 20-30 years. This fjordcrossing will probably be the last of the "big ones" anyway.
No they shouldn't. In the long run, 30-40 years, most of those are useless. E 39 should follow an outer corridor all the way from Bergen to Ålesund (and to Halsa in north).
Here's my proposal of a whole new E 39 between Ålesund and Bergen. With two alternatives to cross Sognefjorden. The total length would be between 280 and 300 km depending on which alternative is chosen for the Sognefjord crossing. Compared to the 360 km (excluding ferries) it is today. Travel time would be down to 3 hours and 30 minutes, compared to the 6 hours today if you hit the ferries good.




Using alternative 1 with a bridge over Sognefjorden my estimate is that the total cost will be about 68,5 billion NOK. That being four lanes on all bridges and tunnels, and mainly high standard two lane road the rest. The exception being Spjelkavik - Hareid and Åsane - Knarvik where a four lane motorway is needed.

Sognefjord bridge 3,1 km : 15 billion
Storfjord bridge 3,1 km : 15 billion
Tunnels 83,7 km (150k/meter) : 12,5 billion
Rovdefjord bridge 2 km : 8 billion
Nordfjord bridge 1,7 km : 6 billion
Førdefjord bridge 1 km : 3 billion
Masfjord bridge 750 m : 2 billion
Motorway Spjelkavik - Ulsteinvik 20 km (100k/meter) : 2 billion
Motorway Åsane - Knarvik 10 km (100k/meter) : 1 billion
New Nordhordland Bridge : 3 billion
Rest of the route 66,5 km (15k/meter) : 1 billion

Total cost : 68,5 billion NOK.

That's only 3,425 billion NOK each year for 20 years.

I doubt that a renovation of the current corridor will be that much cheaper. And being a much worse alternative it's clear what should be chosen.
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Old March 15th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #1273
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[QUOTE=Oslo 5;74301851]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
The stats I've seen show that Germany has an equal or better road accident level than Norway. Can anyone confirm this? Also, here is an article (in Norwegian) that I have that shows that increasing speed limits in Denmark and Sweden DID NOT increase the number of accidents. http://www.ha-halden.no/motor/article5375313.ece (Google Chrome automatically translates it into any major language you want.)

QUOTE]

No, I don’t think anyone can. No stats I have seen prove that (and I have seen a few). People shouldn’t confuse the different between accidents numbers and accident severity either. While the accident severity is on its way down in Norway (last year we had the fewest fatalities on Norwegian roads since 1955), the accident numbers are in fact rather constant. Of course, that the accident numbers is constant doesn’t say that the number of accidents isn’t going down statistically (the are going down to since the volume of traffic is rising). Apart from that, it’s very complicated to compare Norwegian and German stats, Norway has a small motorway network with mostly moderate traffic, while Germany has a large and heavy trafficked system.

http://www.etsc.eu/map-of-europe/?country=Norway
If you increase speed limits(not decrease them), yet improve road quality and safety, and have a variable speed limit in those areas where the limit is 90,100 or higher (speed limit is lowered in bad weather), I suspect accidents will come down. (regardless of size of road)

In narrow 2 lane roads here in the UK(and also in Germany), you have 100km limits much of the time, and there isn't mass numbers of accidents. In Norway, due to the changing weather extremes, you can simply raise of lower the limit depending on weather it is sunny, rainy, snowy, etc... The fact that Germany has a huge amount of traffic compared to Norway with much faster speed limits, yet an equal or lower rate of accidents should tell the Norwegian government something. Yes, I understand the weather aspect, but that again can be taken into account with electronic variable speed limits. I NEVER HEAR that discussed by any Norwegian official. If they have, give me the link please.

I can't believe how naive the Norwegian transport department is in thinking that speed is what we need to kill(not pun intended). They should just ban driving altogether if they are serious about no more accidents.

Last edited by JeremyCastle; March 15th, 2011 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Minor spelling
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Old March 15th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #1274
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No they shouldn't. In the long run, 30-40 years, most of those are useless.
It is? The traffic on this road is low and it's not like the trafficnumbers are increasing very much either, so I don't see the big need for four lane tunnels and bridges outside of Åsane-Knarvik.

I don't see a rerouting to the west as realistic anymore as all of the work are being invested in the inner route. And as mentioned the road between Bergen and sognefjorden(E39) is actually not bad at all considering the trafficnumbers with a few exceptions that are allready in the NTP. As mentioned they have started upgrading the road between Førde and Sognefjorden as well.

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Måndag vert det nytt møte om konseptvalutgreiinga for E39 mellom Skei og Ålesund. I dette møtet vert det lagt fram opplysningar som syner at det indre alternativet er samfunnsøkonomisk mest lønsamt. Indre line er 87 km frå Skei til Volda, gir 66 minutts køyretid og er kostnadsrekna til 4,5 milliardar kroner.
Indre line går i tunnel under Utvikfjellet og veg i dagen til Innvik. Etter Innvik går vegen inn i ny tunnel til Frøholm. Litt oppe i fjellsida går den over i hengebru over Nordfjord til Svarstad. Ei bru som vil gå 70 meter over vassflata og dermed gi klaring for cruiseskipa på veg til og frå Olden. Ved Svarstad vil vegen gå inn i ny tunnel under Langesethøgda og kome ut i dagen att i Markane. Deretter går vegen inn i ny tunnel frå Øyebakken til Grodås for så å knyte seg til Kvivsvegen.
http://www.fjordingen.no/nyhende/article315522.ece
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Old March 15th, 2011, 11:52 PM   #1275
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[QUOTE=JeremyCastle;74327683]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslo 5 View Post

If you increase speed limits(not decrease them), yet improve road quality and safety, and have a variable speed limit in those areas where the limit is 90,100 or higher (speed limit is lowered in bad weather), I suspect accidents will come down. (regardless of size of road)

In narrow 2 lane roads here in the UK(and also in Germany), you have 100km limits much of the time, and there isn't mass numbers of accidents. In Norway, due to the changing weather extremes, you can simply raise of lower the limit depending on weather it is sunny, rainy, snowy, etc... The fact that Germany has a huge amount of traffic compared to Norway with much faster speed limits, yet an equal or lower rate of accidents should tell the Norwegian government something. Yes, I understand the weather aspect, but that again can be taken into account with electronic variable speed limits. I NEVER HEAR that discussed by any Norwegian official. If they have, give me the link please.

I can't believe how naive the Norwegian transport department is in thinking that speed is what we need to kill(not pun intended). They should just ban driving altogether if they are serious about no more accidents.
There is no doubt that divided highways are safer than undivided ones. It is also pretty clear that higher speed increases the severity of any given accident. Most serious research also indicates quite clearly that a considerable increase in average speed on a given stretch of road leads to more accidents. Nonetheless, that is no excuse for not improving road quality and that better roads combined with a similar traffic culture will lead to fewer and less severe accidents - even if travel speed is moderately higher (see Sweden vs Norway, for instance).

Variable speed limits make sense, but that's pretty expensive and completely unrealistic outside the busiest sections of highways/motorways. It is also worth noting that more people are killed on Norwegian roads in winter than in summer, even when traffic volumes are taken into consideration.
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Old March 15th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #1276
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The speed limits are already pretty low in Norway. I'd say the inferior road design of some long-distance routes is the main problem.
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Old March 16th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The speed limits are already pretty low in Norway. I'd say the inferior road design of some long-distance routes is the main problem.
I wouldn't say inferior, so much as outdated. Sure, they COULD build /upgrade many highways to allow for a higher speed, but they don't. At the same time though, I think the lower speed limit helps in reducing accidents, especially in such a mountainous country.
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Old March 16th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #1278
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Foreign contractors likely to win contracts for Dalsfjord bridge




Looks like Dutch HSM BV will be mounting steel while German Bilfinger Berger will poor concrete since they had the cheapest bids for this huge bridge to nowhere.
http://www.vegvesen.no/Vegprosjekter...rua.205056.cms
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Old March 16th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #1279
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I wouldn't say inferior, so much as outdated. Sure, they COULD build /upgrade many highways to allow for a higher speed, but they don't. At the same time though, I think the lower speed limit helps in reducing accidents, especially in such a mountainous country.
The mountainous highways usually have 80 km/h due to low traffic and no driveway access. Curvature is never a factor when deciding speed limit in Norway. It's the valley and lowland routes that are most annoying since they have a huge number of long 60km/h stretches trough spread built areas. Needless to say the police enjoys staking out such stretches.
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Old March 16th, 2011, 02:37 PM   #1280
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
The mountainous highways usually have 80 km/h due to low traffic and no driveway access. Curvature is never a factor when deciding speed limit in Norway. It's the valley and lowland routes that are most annoying since they have a huge number of long 60km/h stretches trough spread built areas. Needless to say the police enjoys staking out such stretches.
If you look back a page or two, you'll see that the government has decided to lower speed limits from 80 to 70 on stretches of road so we'll see how many stretches of highway will still be 80. :-/
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