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Old May 1st, 2011, 09:30 PM   #1321
Devil9
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Dude on the serious side a ferry waiting lane does not count then even hareid that has 8 lanes is bigger http://tiny.cc/8_lanes.. Molde has only 5 you know what that means. I think i heard Hareid- sulesund ferry connection had 1,5 million cars a year. Yea sulafjorden is hard to cross. The tunnel would be over 500 metres under the sea while Eiksundtunnelen is now 260 metres below the sea. That would be a new record in the same region:P And it wont be that steep. I still dont know your name ... My name is Martin. I was at sunndalsøra before easter vacation. Going home with Mørelinja(Nor-way bussekspress)

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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:00 PM   #1322
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I can understand the frustration of Norwegians about their road networks, especially if you compare it to Sweden or Denmark. However, I think it is important to understand that the Norwegian population is rather low for such a large country, plus all the mountains and fjords require very expensive crossings (sub-sea tunnels, bridges, land tunnels) where there is basically no sufficient tax base for. The cost of these engineering structures is quite high while the usage is rather low, hence the tolls.

Replacing ferries by fixed links has huge economic impacts, especially for remote regions. Some call it pork-barrel spending, but I don't quite agree. Ferries are inconvenient and limit travel and economic growth. Did you know that after the Great Belt Ferry in Denmark got replaced by a fixed link, traffic soared from 9 000 to 30 000 vehicles per day? These are all people who think their trip is (economically) important enough to pay a toll of € 30 each way.

Of course it would be nice if Norway build some more motorways, but I think the fixed links in the coastal regions are just as important. It also keeps rural areas from emptying, making schools, hospitals, supermarkets, etc unable to function. They had this problem in Spain, which they battled with new motorways.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:17 PM   #1323
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Sorry Chris but you are wrong, Norway has more money than it knows what to do with, as it currently stands more money is collected from petrol taxes and vehicle registrations than what is spent on roads, both maintenance and upgrading, tolls aren't really necessary for most roading projects, they could be funded from the money collected but not used.

I believe the problem with Norways roads can be laid completely at the governments door, basically they don't like cars, they don't like road transport. It's partly due to some daft notion that Norway is doing the correct thing environmentally and that other countries will use Norway as an example, they tend to forget that the Chinese buy more cars in a couple of days than are sold in Norway in 1 year.

The roading problem is fixable, however (I believe) it won't happen under a socialist government, they just don't like cars.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:20 PM   #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
Sorry Chris but you are wrong, Norway has more money than it knows what to do with, as it currently stands more money is collected from petrol taxes and vehicle registrations than what is spent on roads, both maintenance and upgrading, tolls aren't really necessary for most roading projects, they could be funded from the money collected but not used.
On average yes, but consider all these large sub-sea tunnels or suspension bridges that carry maybe 3 000 vehicles per day. They are of huge economic importance, but the local tax-base is not enough to fund it. Norway did build a lot of major links in the past 20 years.

However, I agree on the symbolic politics part, just as annoying as Sweden's policy that for each increased speed limit, another road must have a decreased speed limit. Or the Danish incredible car tax that just causes the car fleet to age and be less clean and safe.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:27 PM   #1325
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I guess some local areas don't have enough money to make roading improvements on local roads, however petrol tax and vehicle registration tax are collected nationally, there is more money that could and should be used for roads than what is, roads of national significance should be centrally funded.

BTW Norway has the oldest vehicle fleet in Europe.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:30 PM   #1326
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I'm wondering if the Norwegian GDP values aren't inflated because of the high gas / oil income. Does the average Norwegian really gets € 80 000 per year on his paycheck?

In the Netherlands the poorest province always turns out the richest in statistics because of gas exploration.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:48 PM   #1327
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Yes oil and gas distorts Norways GDP, the average salary is approx €56,000.

http://www.ssb.no/lonn/main.shtml
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Old May 1st, 2011, 11:55 PM   #1328
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GDP and average salary are of course not interchangable quantities in any country. Everything that the nation produces do not end up in the pay checks. It depends on what the owners do with the created value and how they are regulated by the governement. In the case of Scandinavia in particular, a lot is directed to the public sector and given to the population in the form of services. In Norway, where the government is running with a huge surplus each year, a lot of it is also invested abroad. Only in the so called "Pension fund abroad", more popularly known as the "oil fund", roughly 400 billion Euros are tucked away.

The problem in Norway is not the lack of public money, in fact I think it is the converse. The economy is so good that the politicians have the focus on all other issues than improving the productivity.

In any case, toll roads are a rather inefficient way of collecting money, and the system is also very little sofisticated and affects people in a rather random way. The only toll I could accept is a system where all people pay per km, but we already have such a system more or less through the petrol tax.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 02:05 AM   #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Molde already has a 5-lane road, BTW

A bit more on the serious side: I was impressed when I in the early 90s discovered that the main street through Sunndalsøra (rv70), had four lanes. However, they have "modernized" the road since then, making a parking lot of half the street, it seems.
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Dude on the serious side a ferry waiting lane does not count then even hareid that has 8 lanes is bigger http://tiny.cc/8_lanes.. Molde has only 5 you know what that means.
Pfff, lanes are the old way. In my hometown we experiment with a lane free-environment. Hence number of lanes = indefinite, and win over you both!
This stretch is lane-free
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 02:36 AM   #1330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceCheese View Post
Pfff, lanes are the old way. In my hometown we experiment with a lane free-environment. Hence number of lanes = indefinite, and win over you both!
This stretch is lane-free


Is that guy in the front texting? Geez.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 03:04 PM   #1331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil9 View Post
Dude on the serious side a ferry waiting lane does not count then even hareid that has 8 lanes is bigger http://tiny.cc/8_lanes.. Molde has only 5 you know what that means. I think i heard Hareid- sulesund ferry connection had 1,5 million cars a year. Yea sulafjorden is hard to cross. The tunnel would be over 500 metres under the sea while Eiksundtunnelen is now 260 metres below the sea. That would be a new record in the same region:P
The Hareid ferry-quay actually has 9 lanes..

Aadt:
Fv61 Hareid - Sulasundet: 2100.
E39 Molde - Vestnes: 1900.

6. and 7. most traficated ferry connections in Norway by number of vehicles.

Alternative crossingpoints for longdistance-trafic south of Ålesund:
Fv 60 Ørsneset – Magerholm 2100 (5.)
E39 Festøya - Solavågen: 1400 (11.)

Fv61 Hafast to replace Hareid - Sulasundet:
625 meters under sea-level - 18,5km long (plus the second tunnel of 4,8km with 150 meters under sea-level). 3,8 billion NOK combined for 2 twin-tube tunnels with 4 lanes.



You need to make this happend to keep the record since Rogaland is going to beat the current ones with longest and deepest sub-sea tunnel twice. First in 2017.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 03:30 PM   #1332
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Is the E6 Oslo-Swedish border all motorway these days?
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 03:32 PM   #1333
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Yes, only a few stretches on the Swedish side is left before we have a complete Oslo - Gothenburg motorway.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 03:35 PM   #1334
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Swedish side:
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 03:44 PM   #1335
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To be fair the motorway isn't really complete since it ends right on the municipality border of the city, where an old 2+2 express-road with 80km/h, bus-stops, narrow shoulders and low quality on/off ramps untill Ring3 (that has even lower standard with a simple T-intersection, sidewalks and halfyear 60km/h limit - and if going to the downtown/E18 tunnel you have to go trough a round-about). I don't see this critical part of E6 will be upgraded to motorway-standard any time soon....
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 04:07 PM   #1336
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But isn't parts of that stretch an OP3 project? I would love to see a superlong Manglerudtunnel. Abildsø - Alnabru has been mentioned. Maybe it should be all the way to Klemetsrud? Eitherway, I'm sure something will happen here soon (I would love to read that "Sørkorridorutredningen", which I can't find online).

From NTP 2014-2023:

Code:
Veg	Strekning					Beskrivelse av prosjekt eller grupper av tiltak		Begrunnelse						Kostnad mill. kr	Prioritet	1	2	3 

E6	Manglerudprosjektet fra Klemetsrud til Teisen	3 alternativer foreligger fra Sørkorridorutredningen	Fremkommelighet for kollektiv, næring og sykkel 	4 000					4 000
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 04:17 PM   #1337
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You're right, it really sucks we know so little about the Manglerudproject. Surely it will be some sort of tunnel-bypass but where does it end and start and does it come with upgrade south to Klemetsrud. Guess we will wait a couple of more years to see what comes out of it. In 2013 and 2014 are set of 10 million per year to plan the bypass.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 04:47 PM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
The Hareid ferry-quay actually has 9 lanes..

Aadt:
Fv61 Hareid - Sulasundet: 2100.
E39 Molde - Vestnes: 1900.

6. and 7. most traficated ferry connections in Norway by number of vehicles.

Alternative crossingpoints for longdistance-trafic south of Ålesund:
Fv 60 Ørsneset – Magerholm 2100 (5.)
E39 Festøya - Solavågen: 1400 (11.)

Fv61 Hafast to replace Hareid - Sulasundet:
625 meters under sea-level - 18,5km long (plus the second tunnel of 4,8km with 150 meters under sea-level). 3,8 billion NOK combined for 2 twin-tube tunnels with 4 lanes.



You need to make this happend to keep the record since Rogaland is going to beat the current ones with longest and deepest sub-sea tunnel twice. First in 2017.
Such an extremely deep tunnel does not make much environmental sense though, it means that trucks going from Spjelkavik to Volda will have to climb (and descend) at least 625+260+150=1035 m. This is comparable with the highest mountain passes on the national highway grid on a relatively short length, and the trucks in particular will spend a lot of unesseccary fuel. In comparison, the highest point on the Rv 3 Trondheim-Oslo is only 733 m....

The budget also seems a bit optimistic, all the time Rogfast has a significantly higher price tag for a tunnel that does not go that deep.

Instead, I think that this project, as well as perhaps Flakk-Rørvik (Trondheimsfjorden, number 4 on the list of most trafficated ferry connections, in practice 3-7 have almost the same traffic), should be explored for alternative techniques such as submerged tube tunnel bridges.

As I have pointed out before, an alternative to cross the Trondheimsfjorden is to dig a tunnel on the route Ranheim-Frosta-Leksvik, where the depth is not so extreme, but that tunnel will be more than 20 km as well compared with 6-8 km if it can cross the fjord at Flakk-Rørvik.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; May 2nd, 2011 at 04:52 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 02:49 AM   #1339
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r

I have heard talk of moving the e39 to hareid when hafast is done. Then it will go futher through kvisvegen . If this tunnel gets built it will be a huge boost for souther sunnmøre because of all the buisness in hareid and ulsteinvik escpecially ulsteinvik and herøy which has huge shipping companies.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 09:53 AM   #1340
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How about E18 to the Swedish border? That road seem so to be so neglected, I wish that was upgraded to motorway standard...

I was shocked to see that it was upgraded a few years ago but still to only 1+1!
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