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Old August 27th, 2011, 12:19 AM   #1461
54°26′S 3°24′E
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Some news from Norwegian highways:
  1. Sluppen bridge in Trondheim is on the brink of collapsing (?) and is closed for at least four weeks. http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondh...cle1682592.ece

    This is national road 706 and one of the few east / west connection open to the public in Trondheim, and is thus quite heavily trafficated in Norwegian terms, although a selective toll has reduced the traffic quite a lot lately. Hence, a lot of people now have to drive long detours of 10 km or so through other streets which the local rulers have done their best to strangle.

    The damage on the bridge was probably caused by a truck hitting the crash barrier. However, it was built in 1954 on the pylons of a railway bridge from 1864 (?), so somebody should have seen this coming... Anyway, through tolls it will be replaced by another bridge and a new toll financed road system in not so many years (hopefully). See:
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7#post46218417
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1179
  2. Some people has tried to calculate what the future means in terms of tolls in some regions of the country:
    • E6 / Rv3 Oslo-Elverum: NOK 175 (likely to be higher due to cost increases on Rv 3)
    • E6 Trøndelag southbound from Trondheim: NOK 200 (=> Trondheim-Oslo NOK 375)
    • E6 through Trøndelag: NOK 568!
    Currency rate: Roughly 8 NOK per €
    Sources:
    http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/okonom...cle1682921.ece
    http://www.ostlendingen.no/nyheter/3...oslo-1.6444303

In a few weeks, there is an election in Norway.....
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Old August 27th, 2011, 01:26 AM   #1462
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I don't get it, high rated countries, as Norway, Sweden, Danemark, what's with all these tolls? You have a bridge, you toll it, a tunnel, toll it, traffic through the city, tax it. I don't get it.
And after all this, you can't repair a bridge? And worse, you put a toll so people should bypass the road.
I'm not judging at all, I respect you, but just a little puzzled.

BTW, what are the predictions for elections?
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Old August 27th, 2011, 08:10 AM   #1463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I don't get it, high rated countries, as Norway, Sweden, Danemark, what's with all these tolls? You have a bridge, you toll it, a tunnel, toll it, traffic through the city, tax it. I don't get it.
And after all this, you can't repair a bridge? And worse, you put a toll so people should bypass the road.
I'm not judging at all, I respect you, but just a little puzzled.

BTW, what are the predictions for elections?
Denmark and Sweden dont toll motorways.
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Old August 27th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #1464
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Sweden does on Svinesund.
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Old August 27th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I don't get it, high rated countries, as Norway, Sweden, Danemark, what's with all these tolls? You have a bridge, you toll it, a tunnel, toll it, traffic through the city, tax it. I don't get it.
And after all this, you can't repair a bridge? And worse, you put a toll so people should bypass the road.
I'm not judging at all, I respect you, but just a little puzzled.

BTW, what are the predictions for elections?
Well, yeah, Norway is the only Scandinavian country with a widespread use of tolls. They also have the worst roads
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Old August 27th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #1466
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That's a paradox for me. High taxes, tolls, great economy, and few motorway (like) roads ... but maybe trafiic doesn't recommand them?
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Old August 28th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #1467
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We don't understand it either....

Historically, roads were seen more or less as a luxury, as most of the cash cow industries of Norway relied, and still to a large extent relies, on ship transport. So, when the Germans did not have time to realize their plans for a motorway network during the war (including a Trondheim-Oslo motorway), everything was shelfed until the 60s sometime when new plans were drawn up, only to be shelfed again a few years later because district politics got the upper hand.

Tolls are however a rather new phenomenom. Denmark tolls it's larger bridges, btw, including the bridge to Sweden. That's how the toll started in Norway as well back in the late 70s / early 80s. Now, however, it has gone as far that the leader of transport committe of the parliament, coming from the opposition even, claims that it is not possible to build roads without tolls, although building a small dent in the stock market (Norway have a lot of foreign investments) are costing us many times the cost of a brand new and fantastic road network all over the country...
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Old August 28th, 2011, 02:31 AM   #1468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
We don't understand it either....

Historically, roads were seen more or less as a luxury, as most of the cash cow industries of Norway relied, and still to a large extent relies, on ship transport. So, when the Germans did not have time to realize their plans for a motorway network during the war (including a Trondheim-Oslo motorway), everything was shelfed until the 60s sometime when new plans were drawn up, only to be shelfed again a few years later because district politics got the upper hand.

Tolls are however a rather new phenomenom. Denmark tolls it's larger bridges, btw, including the bridge to Sweden. That's how the toll started in Norway as well back in the late 70s / early 80s. Now, however, it has gone as far that the leader of transport committe of the parliament, coming from the opposition even, claims that it is not possible to build roads without tolls, although building a small dent in the stock market (Norway have a lot of foreign investments) are costing us many times the cost of a brand new and fantastic road network all over the country...
This really sucks for you.
And it's again, an example of stupid politicians (or maybe quite the opposite, they know exactly what they are doing). They are only taking advantage of high life standard to tax more and more, and also with the big amount of money raise social support, because they bring votes. And the big shame is, when they also succeed convincing the people that this is the right way to go.
But I don't want to go to deep into this, and I will apologize for the off-topic.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 12:31 PM   #1469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I don't get it, high rated countries, as Norway, Sweden, Danemark, what's with all these tolls? You have a bridge, you toll it, a tunnel, toll it, traffic through the city, tax it. I don't get it.
And after all this, you can't repair a bridge? And worse, you put a toll so people should bypass the road.
I'm not judging at all, I respect you, but just a little puzzled.

BTW, what are the predictions for elections?
It's very puzzeling indeed, but after time once the road has been paid for the toll is removed, or in the case of some tunnels where I live the tunnel has been long paid off but they keep the toll to pay for other projects, many not roading related.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #1470
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That's a paradox for me. High taxes, tolls, great economy, and few motorway (like) roads ... but maybe trafiic doesn't recommand them?
I think it's more down to a political system which doesn't encourage roads or even like cars, they don't like rail either, and they don't care if they strangle the economy. It costs more to ship a europallet of goods from Molde to Oslo than it costs to ship that same pallet from Oslo to anywhere in Europe.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 12:50 PM   #1471
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I think it's more down to a political system which doesn't encourage roads or even like cars, they don't like rail either, and they don't care if they strangle the economy. It costs more to ship a europallet of goods from Molde to Oslo than it costs to ship that same pallet from Oslo to anywhere in Europe.
OK, I heard of not encouraging car system (because of pollution, noise, etc.), but never of not doing this for rail system. If you ask me, that's absolutely stupid, and my guess is it's because of some political clientele, and if this is not the case, than it can only mean infinite stupidity.
Can't the people change anything regarding this? Or is the majority satisfied with the system, in case there's nothing to do...
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Old August 28th, 2011, 01:02 PM   #1472
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Maybe Norway has too many cave people...

(citizens against virtually everything).
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Old August 28th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #1473
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cinxx the Oslo commuter rail network has been starved of funding so next to no maintenance work has been done on it in decades, the problems have gotten so bad that this year and for the next three years the entire network will be shut down for 45-60 days each summer.

Chris the problem with Norway is many/most Norwegians don't realise how bad things really are, the average Norwegian lives in a bubble where they believe that everything in Norway is world class, that it's the best country in the world to live in, this is all total bullshit of course.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #1474
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Chris has a point. The cave people may not be so many in numbers, but they certainly know how to scream out loud when something they do not like is about to happen; This being new roads, new buildings or a new TV schedule on the national TV channels... The scary part is that their whining quite often gets them where they want...
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Old August 28th, 2011, 02:07 PM   #1475
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I have to say I don't like how canal digital has re-organised the channel order.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 02:37 PM   #1476
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Just scream it out loud and wait for the change!!!
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Old August 29th, 2011, 12:15 AM   #1477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
Chris the problem with Norway is many/most Norwegians don't realise how bad things really are, the average Norwegian lives in a bubble where they believe that everything in Norway is world class, that it's the best country in the world to live in, this is all total bullshit of course.
I can relate to much of what has been said above, although I got a fiber to my home now so I could ditch canal digital

However, I have never heard anyone claiming that Norwegian roads are world class. True, some people say that roads in the counties around Oslo are decent, or that we should not build roads due to the environment etc., but nobody are stupid enough to claim that we have wordl class roads. After all, few people travel more than Norwegians.

[ot]
However, life is more than roads. For me Norway is the best country to live in simply because I love the outdoors. Not many places in the world where you can have good skiing during winter, swim during summer, fish salmon in the river, and hunt or pick all the berries you need during the fall, have deer, moose, or fox and badgers going through your garden almost every day, everything virtually inside a larger city. And it must also be said that there are not many places in the world where the average Joe has a higher standard of living like than in Norway, event though the most laborous and skilled among us could probably have been much better off in terms of purchasing power somewhere else. Oil is of course a part of the explanation, culture is another. To bad the public sector is eating more and more of the cake...

BTW: The election is a local one, and the labor party of course got a big boost after the terror attack.
[/ot]
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Old August 29th, 2011, 09:45 AM   #1478
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I can relate to much of what has been said above, although I got a fiber to my home now so I could ditch canal digital

However, I have never heard anyone claiming that Norwegian roads are world class. True, some people say that roads in the counties around Oslo are decent, or that we should not build roads due to the environment etc., but nobody are stupid enough to claim that we have wordl class roads. After all, few people travel more than Norwegians.
Yes but how many Norwegians travel by car? Most jump on charter flights to the sun, they don't rent cars when away let alone drive on national highways.

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[ot]
However, life is more than roads. For me Norway is the best country to live in simply because I love the outdoors. Not many places in the world where you can have good skiing during winter, swim during summer, fish salmon in the river, and hunt or pick all the berries you need during the fall, have deer, moose, or fox and badgers going through your garden almost every day, everything virtually inside a larger city. And it must also be said that there are not many places in the world where the average Joe has a higher standard of living like than in Norway, event though the most laborous and skilled among us could probably have been much better off in terms of purchasing power somewhere else. Oil is of course a part of the explanation, culture is another. To bad the public sector is eating more and more of the cake...
[/ot]
You could with the exception of foxes, badgers and moose be describing NZ. As you said Norway is a fantastic place for someone who is average, blue collar types do very well here, professional types don't.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 03:57 AM   #1479
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Yes but how many Norwegians travel by car? Most jump on charter flights to the sun, they don't rent cars when away let alone drive on national highways.
All Norwegians have droven multiple times in Sweden and Denmark. Most Norwegians have also traveled by car from Norway to continental Europe. Granted, beyond Scandinavia, most Norwegians travel by plane, but even then it is very common to rent a car to get around, at least when on holiday.

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You could with the exception of foxes, badgers and moose be describing NZ. As you said Norway is a fantastic place for someone who is average, blue collar types do very well here, professional types don't.
This is getting fairly far off-topic, but as far as I know, not many Kiwis can normally ski in their neighborhood, hence the lack of Kiwi winter sport stars. However, this has nothing to do with my main point: Although the economy in Norway is very good, my impression is that it is often other qualities that attract foreign professionals to Norway. Only during the last 10 years Norway received 242 000 immigrants from Europe. Quite a few of them were actually professionals from Sweden / Germany / Netherlands /France /UK etc. There are many at my workplace and in my neighborhood. And, I don't fancy that badger too much

PS: There is also a big difference between being a professional in a town like Molde and the major cities of Norway in terms of salary and other benefits, but then you have a great view
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 09:55 AM   #1480
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You can't say all Norwegians have driven in Denmark and Sweden, that a huge generalisation, same as saying most Norwegians have travelled by car to continental, I doubt even half have. Hence the reason why most Norwegians know the roads here are bad but they really don't know how bad they actually are compared to roads of other European countries.

And skiing most NZer's live with 3.5 hours of a skifield, some live within minutes, you'll find that whilst we don't go into the trad winters sports we are well represented when it comes to extreme skiing.

Back to the roads I can't understand why the govt has a problem with developing an efficient road network, the cost to the economy each year must run into the tens of billions of NOK; Norwegian business are already on the back foot due to the high labour costs then they have to deal with excessive transport costs due to poor roads.

It takes a truck 8-9 hours (7-8 in a car) to drive the 520 km from Molde to Oslo, it took me 9 hours to drive from Milan to Hamburg, which is twice the distance. I just can't understand why building a modern, efficient, safe highway network isn't a national priority.
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