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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:32 AM   #1481
ChrisZwolle
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Many Dutch emigrate to Norway for the peacefulness and serenity, not to be found in overcrowded Netherlands. Keep in mind the least densely populated province in the Netherlands (Zeeland) is 80% more densely populated than the most densely populated fylke (except for Oslo) in Norway. Akershus has 105 inh./km², Zeeland has 186 inh./km². And even Zeeland is considered to be "empty" by Dutch standards (35% of the Dutch average).
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 01:48 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
Back to the roads I can't understand why the govt has a problem with developing an efficient road network, the cost to the economy each year must run into the tens of billions of NOK; Norwegian business are already on the back foot due to the high labour costs then they have to deal with excessive transport costs due to poor roads.

It takes a truck 8-9 hours (7-8 in a car) to drive the 520 km from Molde to Oslo, it took me 9 hours to drive from Milan to Hamburg, which is twice the distance. I just can't understand why building a modern, efficient, safe highway network isn't a national priority.
I certainly agree with you on this.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 02:18 PM   #1483
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I just can't understand why building a modern, efficient, safe highway network isn't a national priority.
I never fully understood why the network of proper highways and motorways is so small compared to Sweden and Finland and why Norway being the richest country in the Nordics has invested so little. All funds for the past 20 years seem to have gone into prestigious bridge and tunnel projects across the fjords, instead of widening and reconstruction of existing highways.

Sure the topography along the coastal routes puts certain restrictions on road building and Norway is certainly not Denmark, but considering that most new projects are tolled and that the state always recoups the investment, why isn't more being built? Again I compare with Sweden and Finland; where major networks already exists - and also free of charge.

But then again, the Norwegian subsidiaries of SAS Scandinavian Airlines are the only ones normally operating with a profit.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 07:02 PM   #1484
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I never fully understood why the network of proper highways and motorways is so small compared to Sweden and Finland and why Norway being the richest country in the Nordics has invested so little. All funds for the past 20 years seem to have gone into prestigious bridge and tunnel projects across the fjords, instead of widening and reconstruction of existing highways.
What annoys me as well is that most of these bridge and tunnel projects are funded via tolls, for national routes they should be paid for by central govt. The poor motorist is having to pay for decades of under development. I think the other issue is that cars have often been seen as prestigious, socialists don't like them.

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Sure the topography along the coastal routes puts certain restrictions on road building and Norway is certainly not Denmark, but considering that most new projects are tolled and that the state always recoups the investment, why isn't more being built? Again I compare with Sweden and Finland; where major networks already exists - and also free of charge.
I don't buy that old chestnut that Norway is a difficult country to build roads in, that's just a bullshit excuse the govt uses to deflect peoples complaints, the Swiss have bigger mountains, they have a great network, the Croatians are a lot poorer yet have almost completed an entire motorway network over some pretty tough terrain in the past 15 years.

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But then again, the Norwegian subsidiaries of SAS Scandinavian Airlines are the only ones normally operating with a profit.
Yup but a lot of the Norwegian routes which SAS flys are public service routes where they make good profits.

It's a pity (not really) that WW2 didn't last a little longer since I believe the Germans planned to build Autobahns in Norway. I have been told that a lot of what is here today is due to the Germans, can anyone confirm this?
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 07:09 PM   #1485
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It's a pity (not really) that WW2 didn't last a little longer since I believe the Germans planned to build Autobahns in Norway. I have been told that a lot of what is here today is due to the Germans, can anyone confirm this?
Nearly all construction of German Autobahns, or motorways constructed by the Germans in occupied countries, ceased in 1942.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 07:49 PM   #1486
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We have never had any major car manufactures in Norway unless you count a few pre war marques and Think, which in turns means that we never have had any large companies lobbying for nicer roads and cheaper cars. In fact we have a lot of businesses that are profiting from the current situation - Hurtigruten etc. . Also add the fact that our roads are dead end and do not connect other countries with each other (meaning we only use it for domestic transport), and the cars and the roads are left as a very easy cash cow for the gov.

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Old September 3rd, 2011, 09:25 PM   #1487
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It's not that you don't have any highway connections with other countries, it's that you don't have a lot of them. There are land connections with Sweden (both in the north and south), as well as Russia and Finland in the northern part of the country. Geography and population are the reason there are so few connections, but you know that. Very few highways are actually dead end.

The Hurtigruten, while still playing an important role in passenger transportation, is now more a tourist thing. While you "can" get your car or motorcycle onboard (the vessel is not a RO-RO), it's geared more towards those travelling without a vehicle.

Ferries fill in most highway gaps, though there is a need for improvement in service, both in terms of scheduling and capacity.

It all comes down to cost. Yes, there are several places where the road network needs to be improved, but, given the small population, it's not financially feasible, or require very expensive tolls.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 09:31 PM   #1488
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It's not that you don't have any highway connections with other countries, it's that you don't have a lot of them. There are land connections with Sweden (both in the north and south), as well as Russia and Finland in the northern part of the country. Geography and population are the reason there are so few connections, but you know that. Very few highways are actually dead end.
Not a single person driver through Norway to get to Russia, Sweden or Finland. Hence they are dead end in the sense that it is only used by the people living/visiting this country, and it is not a thoroughfare like German or Denmarks road network is.
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The Hurtigruten, while still playing an important role in passenger transportation, is now more a tourist thing. While you "can" get your car or motorcycle onboard (the vessel is not a RO-RO), it's geared more towards those travelling without a vehicle.
It used to be a major transport link between the North and the West of country. We also have had many large wharf and shipping companies earning money on crappy road network, while we have historically had none large car manufacturers or similar pushing for more a car-friendly politic.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 10:07 PM   #1489
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We have never had any major car manufactures in Norway unless you count a few pre war marques and Think, which in turns means that we never have had any large companies lobbying for nicer roads and cheaper cars. In fact we have a lot of businesses that are profiting from the current situation - Hurtigruten etc. . Also add the fact that our roads are dead end and do not connect other countries with each other (meaning we only use it for domestic transport), and the cars and the roads are left as a very easy cash cow for the gov.
There are many countries without a motor industry who have decent roads. Organisations like NAF should be lobbying for better roads, as should road transport companies, bad roads cost them time, excess fuel consumption and increased maintenance. I think the amount of goods transported by Hurtigruten is pretty limited these day, I often watch them unloading in Molde, normally it's only a single pallet, sometimes a car but more ofthen than not nothing.

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The Hurtigruten, while still playing an important role in passenger transportation, is now more a tourist thing. While you "can" get your car or motorcycle onboard (the vessel is not a RO-RO), it's geared more towards those travelling without a vehicle..
I don't even think it's important for passanger transportation anymore, Hurtigruten is now mostly catering for tourists

It's also very expensive taking your car on board, plus they have size limites, a Transit highcube van for example if too big.

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Ferries fill in most highway gaps, though there is a need for improvement in service, both in terms of scheduling
Ferries only fill in the gaps where a tunnel of bridge hasn't been built or in areas where there isn't enough patronage to justify a bridge or tunnel. A lot of ferry links are being replaced as quickly as possible.

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It all comes down to cost. Yes, there are several places where the road network needs to be improved, but, given the small population, it's not financially feasible, or require very expensive tolls.
It does come down to cost, I believe the current network is costing the country billions every year in loast revenue, it makes Norwegian business less competitive. The road network needs to be fixed, you are just voicing the typical govt response, small population, not financially feasible....it's just complete BS.

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Not a single person driver through Norway to get to Russia, Sweden or Finland. Hence they are dead end in the sense that it is only used by the people living/visiting this country, and it is not a thoroughfare like German or Denmarks road network is.
Just because people don't drive through Norway isn't a good enough excuse for the poor quality of Norways roads.

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It used to be a major transport link between the North and the West of country. We also have had many large wharf and shipping companies earning money on crappy road network, while we have historically had none large car manufacturers or similar pushing for more a car-friendly politic.
Which is why it's costing Norwegian industry a fortune in transport. As above there are many countries without a motor industy who have better roads than Norway, New Zealand is one such example, Ireland is another.

I'm surprised that many of Norway's E routes aren't in danger of losing E route status given the criteria for an E route.

The following design standards should be applied to Euroroutes unless there are exceptional circumstances (such as mountain passes etc.):

*Built-up areas shall be by-passed if they constitute a hindrance or a danger.
*The roads should preferably be motorways or express roads (unless traffic density is low so that there is no congestion on an ordinary road).
*They should be homogeneous and be designed for at least 80 km/h (very exceptionally 60 km/h). Motorways for at least 100 km/h.
*Gradients should not exceed 8% on roads designed for 60 km/h, decreasing to 4% on roads designed for 120 km/h traffic.
*The radius of curved sections of road should be a minimum of 120 m on roads designed for 60 km/h rising to 1000 m on roads designed for 140 km/h.
*"Stopping distance visibility" should be at least 70 m on roads designed for 60 km/h, rising to 300 m on roads designed for 140 km/h.
*Lane width should be at least 3.5 m on straight sections of road. This guarantees adequate clearance for any vehicle having a superstructure of width 2.55 m which is the maximum specified in EU directive 96/53/EC. and 2.6 m specified by some countries.
*The shoulder is recommended to be at least 2.5 m on ordinary roads and 3.25 m on motorways.
*Central reservations should be at least 3 m unless there is a barrier between the two carriageways.
*Overhead clearance should be not less than 4.5 m.
*Railway intersections should be at different levels.

These requirements are meant to be followed for road construction.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 10:15 PM   #1490
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There are many countries without a motor industry who have decent roads.
I doubt it is many countries without a motor industry that has decent roads as there simply very few countries without one. However I never said that it was necessary, but one sure ass hell would have helped.


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Just because people don't drive through Norway isn't a good enough excuse for the poor quality of Norways roads.
And just because people don't drive through Norway is no excuse your lack of ability to read. I never said it was an excuse, however it does means that foreign government aren't pressuring us to solve the problems.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 10:52 PM   #1491
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I doubt it is many countries without a motor industry that has decent roads as there simply very few countries without one. However I never said that it was necessary, but one sure ass hell would have helped.
There are many countries in Europe with good roads which don't have a motor industry, The Baltic States, Croatia, Solvenia, Greece, Switzerland.....

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And just because people don't drive through Norway is no excuse your lack of ability to read. I never said it was an excuse, however it does means that foreign government aren't pressuring us to solve the problems.
Not countries AFAIK but I the UN have been having a go at Norway recently about the state of Norway roads..

Quote:
Norway’s roads fail UN standards


August 12, 2011

Many of Norway’s main highways are not up to standards set by UN agreements to which the country is party.

Newspaper Aftenposten reports that many of the main highways in Norway, known as European highways because they are part of the continental “E-road network” and use the network’s signage, do not follow rules laid down in a 1992 UN document. The UN document sets a number of standards for the most important roads in Europe.

Among the breaches is the fact that Norway is building new two-lane European highways without concrete step barriers (otherwise known as Jersey walls or Jersey barriers). Speaking to Aftenposten, Vilrid Femoen of the Information Council for Road Traffic described Norway’s breaches of the UN standards as “systematic,” adding that Norway’s own framework for road standards was below the level agreed at the UN.

Some critics believe that Norway’s highways could lose their status, although the UN agreements apparently do not have the power to do that.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:09 PM   #1492
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There are many countries in Europe with good roads which don't have a motor industry, The Baltic States, Croatia, Solvenia, Greece, Switzerland.....
Both Switzerland and Greece have motor industries. The baltic states are small, small countries not very comparable. The countries also relies heavily upon foreign investments in their production sectors etc. which means that good infrastructure connecting them to the rest of the continent/investors is even more important than here.

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Not countries AFAIK but I the UN have been having a go at Norway recently about the state of Norway roads..
Not comparable with the pressure you would get from the rest of the Nordic if Norway had Denmarks geographical position.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:30 PM   #1493
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Switzerland and Greece do not assemble or manufacture motor vehicles, it was only in 2007 when Switzerland lifted it's ban on motorsport. The Baltic states may be small, they are also poor in comparison to Norway, if they can afford quality roods so should Norway. NZ doesn't have a motor industry either, nor is it as rich, but it has better roads, roads which are also built in challenging areas like Norway.

Norways geographic position isn't an excuse, you really should be in govt, you're reading from their playbook on reason why we have shit roads in this country, you can come up with all the excuses in the book but it still doesn't make up for the simple fact that roads in this country are the worst in Europe, Norwegian deserve better, they at the very least warrant all the money which is collected in road taxes, vehicle registration and fuel tax to be spent on the roads.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:32 PM   #1494
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What happens to all the money anyway? Norway's GDP per capita is almost twice that of the Netherlands though Norway doesn't strike me as being particularly more wealthy. Social security is more or less comparable.

What is the annual road budget of Norway?
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:44 PM   #1495
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Switzerland and Greece do not assemble or manufacture motor vehicles, it was only in 2007 when Switzerland lifted it's ban on motorsport.
I didn't say they manufactured.
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The Baltic states may be small, they are also poor in comparison to Norway, if they can afford quality roods so should Norway. NZ doesn't have a motor industry either, nor is it as rich, but it has better roads, roads which are also built in challenging areas like Norway.

Norways geographic position isn't an excuse, you really should be in govt, you're reading from their playbook on reason why we have shit roads in this country, you can come up with all the excuses in the book but it still doesn't make up for the simple fact that roads in this country are the worst in Europe, Norwegian deserve better, they at the very least warrant all the money which is collected in road taxes, vehicle registration and fuel tax to be spent on the roads.
I don't excuse it, I tell you why it is like that. Is it how it should be? No. However most economics do rely on proper roads to trade etc., while Norway have historically been more concerned about the sea and no other countries needs our roads either. That's due to our geography.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 11:49 PM   #1496
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What is the annual road budget of Norway?
The number I found for 2011 says 15 milliarder Norwegian kroner or about 1,90 billions euro.

That's from this forum so I don't know how accurate they are:
http://debatt.sol.no/content/veibudsjettet-2011
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Old September 4th, 2011, 01:03 AM   #1497
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What happens to all the money anyway? Norway's GDP per capita is almost twice that of the Netherlands though Norway doesn't strike me as being particularly more wealthy. Social security is more or less comparable.

What is the annual road budget of Norway?
I'd also like to know the answer. I believe taxation collected from fuel tax and vehicle registration is something like 60 billion per year, less than 25% is spent on roads.

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I didn't say they manufactured.
The component industry isn't going to lobby for better roads, Norway also has companies that make components, by your reasoning that is enough to make the government invest in roading, but they don't.

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I don't excuse it, I tell you why it is like that. Is it how it should be? No. However most economics do rely on proper roads to trade etc., while Norway have historically been more concerned about the sea and no other countries needs our roads either. That's due to our geography.
Not anymore and not for a long time has most local Norwegian trade gone via the sea. Post, food, fuel, all sorts of things go via road freight not on coastal ships. Norway needs better roads period.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #1498
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The component industry isn't going to lobby for better roads, Norway also has companies that make components, by your reasoning that is enough to make the government invest in roading, but they don't.
You know that GM Europes hq is in Switzerland, right? You also know that there have been Swiss car makers in the past like Monteverdi, right? Things like that do help paint a better pictures of the car industry than what they have here.

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Not anymore and not for a long time has most local Norwegian trade gone via the sea. Post, food, fuel, all sorts of things go via road freight not on coastal ships. Norway needs better roads period.
Yes, it does and I vote accordingly and I think others should to. The question I answer wasn't if Norway needed better roads though, but why we have the current lack of them. Our lack of historic dependence on our road network have meant that the politicians had the opportunity to completely ignore them while the big companies were more concerned about saving their wharfs.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 02:36 AM   #1499
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You know that GM Europes hq is in Switzerland, right? You also know that there have been Swiss car makers in the past like Monteverdi, right? Things like that do help paint a better pictures of the car industry than what they have here.
GM Europe, I hope you're not confusing them with Adam Opel AG, who are headquartered in Rüsselsheim, Germany, they do not report to GM Europe. GM Europe is only responsible for Chevrolet branded vehicles. There is no GM vehicle manufacturing in Switzerland, there never has been.

Monteverdi, you're having a laugh, one tiny insignificant long closed down manufacturer that only made one original car the 375S, which had a chassis built in Germany, a body built in Italy mated to a Chrysler engine assembled in Switzerland does not constitute a motor industry. All the other cars they built were slightly modified Plymouth's. Think built more cars than Monteverdi ever did.

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Yes, it does and I vote accordingly and I think others should to. The question I answer wasn't if Norway needed better roads though, but why we have the current lack of them. Our lack of historic dependence on our road network have meant that the politicians had the opportunity to completely ignore them while the big companies were more concerned about saving their wharfs.
I think your reasoning is wrong, the real reason IMO on why the govt hasn't built a decent road network in Norway is entirely due to incompetence and a dislike of the motor-vehicle. I also blame the Norwegian people for not getting angry, no other country has roads as bad as Norways, no other country in Europe would allow it, it's got nothing to do with not having a motor industry or are a transit country from one place to another, the fact is the Norwegian govt has let down the Norwegian people, its transport industry and its economy for decades.

It's not only roads it's also rail, same deal, decades of neglect.

Last edited by KiwiRob; September 4th, 2011 at 03:04 AM.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 09:56 AM   #1500
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Look at Ireland. They don't have a motor industry. And people don't drive through Ireland to go to another country. But they have a good motorway network now.
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