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Old September 4th, 2011, 10:51 AM   #1501
koloite
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I looked up the Norwegian national transportation plans for the period 2010-2019 (http://www.ntp.dep.no/2010-2019/pdf/...opploselig.pdf). It's in Norwegian, so it's not that accessible to everyone. It contains plans for sea-, air-, and road transportation.

A quote from the summary of the report:
Quote:
Innsatsen på vegsiden vil først og fremst bli rettet mot
mindre utbedringer, sikkerhet, kollektivtrafikk, universell
utforming, sykkeltrafikk og hvileplasser for tungtrafikken.
Slike tiltak gir god effekt og måloppnåelse i forhold til
kostnadene. Prioriteringene innebærer at de økonomiske
rammene for store prosjekter er lave. Midler til store investeringsprosjekter
foreslås først og fremst å brukes til å fullføre
de prosjekter som inngår i handlingsprogrammet for
perioden 2006–2009. Innenfor planrammen er det i tillegg
funnet plass til oppstart av ti nye prosjekter for om lag
2,5 mrd. kr. De nye prosjektene ligger i hovedsak utenfor
høytrafikkerte områder. Det foreslås et forbedret tilbud på
stamvegferjene, slik at det blir bedre tilpasset næringslivets
og trafikantenes behov.
Basic translation is: The efforts for roads will primarily be aimed at small improvements, safety, public transport, bicycles and rest areas for trucks. These kinds of measurements are the most cost effective. These priorities mean that the total budget for new investments will be low. Instead, money already reserved for large investments will be used to finish off projects already mentioned in the plans for 2006-2009.

Don't expect any large motorway projects in the coming 10 years in Norway...
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Old September 4th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #1502
koloite
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Another quote which indicates what the Government thinks of car traffic:

Quote:
Transportetatene mener at både køprising og jernbanesatsing
er viktig og riktig, men at dette ikke alene kan bidra til
å nå målet for reduksjon av klimagassutslipp. For å redusere
det totale transportomfanget og endre transportmiddelfordelingen
på nasjonalt nivå, må bruk av bil reduseres
også utenom de største byene.
Translation: The transportation departments (rail, sea, air, road) think that congestion charge and prioritizing rail are important and correct, but this alone will not be enough to reach the goals for CO2-reduction. In order to reduce the total transportation needs, and in order to change the transportation mode distribution on a national level, the usage of cars must be reduced, also outside the larger cities.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 11:16 AM   #1503
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A couple of graphs showing the distribution of goods transport within Norway (excluding import/export)



Sjø = Sea
Veg = Road
Jernbane = Rail road

The first graph shows the total goods transport within Norway, the second graph the total goods transport within Norway for distances more than 300km (i.e. excluding local/short transport)
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Old September 4th, 2011, 02:55 PM   #1504
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The problem is not only highways that are not built but the maintenance of roads. Since I live in Oslo, I can only comment on this town. And must say that the road standards in Oslo is miserable. Have just returned from short trip to Zurich and I'm positively surprised by the standard of roads and, not least over how often the trams are running. Totally incredible

Someone here earlier said NAF that do nothing for Norwegian motorists ... I can not imagine that there is still someone who cares to be a member of those
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Old September 4th, 2011, 03:20 PM   #1505
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Some of you keep mentioning the typical government view on road building (a lot of excuses for not investing). However Norway has had many government changes during the past 20 years, having had an equal share of both Social Democratic and Liberal-Conservative governments in charge of road building. There seems to be more to it than just party politics.

Sure Norway has a car industry although no assembly is taking place. Just the amount of subcontractors supplying Saab, Volvo and Scania in Sweden is substantial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koloite View Post
Translation: The transportation departments (rail, sea, air, road) think that congestion charge and prioritizing rail are important and correct, but this alone will not be enough to reach the goals for CO2-reduction. In order to reduce the total transportation needs, and in order to change the transportation mode distribution on a national level, the usage of cars must be reduced, also outside the larger cities.
The above is very interesting. No other country would not build roads in order to cut CO2 emissions as economic growth is equally important. Swedish governments, for example, has been very concious about the environment and a lot of the infrastructure budget was during the 90's geared towards expanding and upgrading the railways. Still, governments in Sweden have always acknowledged the fact that roads do not pollute, vehicles do.

As Uppsala mentions, Ireland built the majority part of its motorway and high quality road network in just a decade. So did Croatia. A lot is being blamed on population density in Norway, but good roads actually motivates growth in traffic, especially when rail transport is still not a viable alternative for fast journeys.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #1506
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The Norwegian should "go Spanish" and build at least an expressway Oslo-Tromsø
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Old September 5th, 2011, 10:50 AM   #1507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katia72 View Post
Someone here earlier said NAF that do nothing for Norwegian motorists ... I can not imagine that there is still someone who cares to be a member of those
I'm a member of NAF, but only because of the 50øre per litre discount on fuel and a 25% discount for new tires.
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Old September 5th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #1508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What happens to all the money anyway? Norway's GDP per capita is almost twice that of the Netherlands though Norway doesn't strike me as being particularly more wealthy. Social security is more or less comparable.
Well, wages are higher on average, as is the cost of virtually everything. That makes a difference. Talking roads, our topography doesn't do us any favours, neither does the fact that there were few roads to begin with. In addition, Norwegian road development the past 50 years has been hampered with a political system that gives a lot of power to local and regional government. Thus, the promise of new roads may be used as a tool for local politicians and their bid for (re-)election. In fact, the only serious attempt on a national approach to build a coherent road network was Norsk Vegplan, launched by the Labour government in the early sixties. When they lost the 1965 election, the plan was thrown out. Since then, governments (Labour and Centre-Right) have stayed with the regional approach (in reality, all Norwegian national roads were actually regional until the invention of the "stamvei" system in the nineties).
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Old September 5th, 2011, 08:03 PM   #1509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
What happens to all the money anyway? Norway's GDP per capita is almost twice that of the Netherlands though Norway doesn't strike me as being particularly more wealthy. Social security is more or less comparable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gov...Fund_of_Norway
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Old September 5th, 2011, 08:13 PM   #1510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
That one is, of course, also an important issue...
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Old September 5th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #1511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
Back to the roads I can't understand why the govt has a problem with developing an efficient road network, the cost to the economy each year must run into the tens of billions of NOK; Norwegian business are already on the back foot due to the high labour costs then they have to deal with excessive transport costs due to poor roads.

It takes a truck 8-9 hours (7-8 in a car) to drive the 520 km from Molde to Oslo, it took me 9 hours to drive from Milan to Hamburg, which is twice the distance. I just can't understand why building a modern, efficient, safe highway network isn't a national priority.
I think there might be room for some reality in this discussion, too.

Norway is currently a wealthy country because on the oil. However, the oil runs out some day. In order to not follow the Dubai Syndrome (the bankers' grandfathers drove camels and their grandsons will drive camels), the country does not use all the excess money today. When Norway runs out of the oil, the roads cannot be sold to get money.

The comparison to Germany and Italy is far from being fair. In total, the area of those countries is twice the area of Norway but they have 30+ times more taxpayers. Most of Norway is mountainous, and located on arctic latitudes, thus making the road much more expensive per a kilometre in average than in most other countries. For example, the main road E6 runs about 2600 kilometres from Svinesund to Kirkenes; about the distance between Hamburg and Lisbon. With the exception of few hundred kilometers on the tundra north of the Arctic Circle, the road runs in a very challenging terrain.

An extra added-cost attribute is the sea. As you can see on the map, the south and west coast is extremely scattered. Huge amounts of money has been invested in bridges and undersea tunnels to create ferry-free connections. For example, the projected building cost of the Hardanger bridge is 300 million euro; the cost of 60 kilometres of motorway at a typical cost of 5 million euro per kilometre.
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Old September 5th, 2011, 10:06 PM   #1512
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Road project costs are a joke anyway compared to the annual government budget. For instance, if they would double the Dutch road budget, the annual government expenses would increase by only 1.5%.
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Old September 5th, 2011, 10:26 PM   #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77

That one is, of course, also an important issue...
It's amazing how many global corporations I find that have 'Government of Norway, via its funds' listed as one of the major shareholders. you guys are buying up the world!
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Old September 5th, 2011, 10:48 PM   #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Road project costs are a joke anyway compared to the annual government budget. For instance, if they would double the Dutch road budget, the annual government expenses would increase by only 1.5%.
You're absolutely right. Still, it's unlikely to happen, as one of the biggest issues when you've dealt with the GFC better than most and have avoided any serious Euro trouble aftermath, that everyone wants money for everything, is that everyone gets a little, but noone gets all that much... That keeps everyone somewhat unhappy, creating a strange form of checks and balances. Nevertheless, quite a few publicly funded institutions are in dire straits, and unless something is done soon, not only our roads and railroads will need major upgrading.

I know this sounds like words from the kind of populist I'm not, but Norway isn't all hugs and puppies. Yes, we are in urgent need of a proper roadway makeover, even though the motorway bonanza some menmbers promote - in my opinion - is overkill, but without respected and influencial infrastructure-concerned politicians, the issue is going to lose out to health care, pension funds and - possibly - even education. No matter who is in office, as these issues HAVE respected and influential proponents.
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Old September 5th, 2011, 10:53 PM   #1515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
It's amazing how many global corporations I find that have 'Government of Norway, via its funds' listed as one of the major shareholders. you guys are buying up the world!
Even though that might be an overstatement, I know what you are getting at. It's even quite easy to explain in a historical-political context, the well-being of future generation is frightfully important to a noveaux riche country like Norway: we have been able to develop a (reasonably) functioning welfare state and the oil wealth is our way of keeping it in an era where many other Western countries may have to downsize it considerably.
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Old September 6th, 2011, 10:41 AM   #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
I think there might be room for some reality in this discussion, too.

Norway is currently a wealthy country because on the oil. However, the oil runs out some day. In order to not follow the Dubai Syndrome (the bankers' grandfathers drove camels and their grandsons will drive camels), the country does not use all the excess money today. When Norway runs out of the oil, the roads cannot be sold to get money..
I'm not suggesting using all the oil money, I'm suggesting using all the money collected on taxes associoated with roads and motor vehicles to be used on roads, at the moment barelyu any of it is, the rest dissappears into the govt coffers to be used on other activities. Investing on roads (and rail) is an investment in the future which will help Norways economy when the oil runs out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The comparison to Germany and Italy is far from being fair. In total, the area of those countries is twice the area of Norway but they have 30+ times more taxpayers. Most of Norway is mountainous, and located on arctic latitudes, thus making the road much more expensive per a kilometre in average than in most other countries. For example, the main road E6 runs about 2600 kilometres from Svinesund to Kirkenes; about the distance between Hamburg and Lisbon. With the exception of few hundred kilometers on the tundra north of the Arctic Circle, the road runs in a very challenging terrain..
But the E6 North of Olso almost all the way to Trondheim runs in a valley, it's heavily trafficked and should be motorway standard, it wouldn't be difficult terrain to build in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
An extra added-cost attribute is the sea. As you can see on the map, the south and west coast is extremely scattered. Huge amounts of money has been invested in bridges and undersea tunnels to create ferry-free connections. For example, the projected building cost of the Hardanger bridge is 300 million euro; the cost of 60 kilometres of motorway at a typical cost of 5 million euro per kilometre.
And most if not all of those bridges and tunnels are funed via tolls, this is wrong, if we have to use tolls to pay for all roading improvements why should be pay vehicle registration and fuel taxes?
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Old September 6th, 2011, 12:24 PM   #1517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
the cost of 60 kilometres of motorway at a typical cost of 5 million euro per kilometre.
In Norway the average cost of 1 kilometre of Motorway is €19,5 million (150 million NOK). Tunnels usually cost twice as much.
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Old September 6th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
In Norway the average cost of 1 kilometre of Motorway is €19,5 million (150 million NOK). Tunnels usually cost twice as much.
WTF!?
And I thought Romania's A3 motorway price was to high with over 10mil...
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Old September 6th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #1519
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That's a fairly normal price, 10 - 20 million for rural motorways.
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Old September 6th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #1520
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But the E6 North of Olso almost all the way to Trondheim runs in a valley, it's heavily trafficked and should be motorway standard, it wouldn't be difficult terrain to build in.
Well, the Dovre plateau and the climb on each side would be an issue, both due to environmental concerns and the topography. Further north, the E6 isn't all that busy until you get to Støren. Gudbrandsdalen - Lillehammer to the Dovre plateau - is pretty busy, particularly in the summer, and at least the southern section should be built to motorway standard. However, the 2+2/2+1/1+1 expressway planned (partially u/c) isn't too bad a solution: current AADT numbers are lower than 10000, north of Otta even below 5000. An Oslo-Trondheim motorway is unrealistic, in my opinion, but both the E6 and the rv 3 should be improved to expressway/divided 1+1/2+1 highway standard.
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